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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 91: Keep calm and carry on to goal with our friendly support group

963 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 12/06/2020 22:41

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
BigChocFrenzy · 17/06/2020 10:31

Oops TYPO !
"so 2 3 miniFDs is now part of the standard thread toolkit"

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/06/2020 10:38

MadAUnt more alternatives are cottage cheese or tuna (canned in brine, not oil), or grilled strips of steak, turkey, salmon etc

OP posts:
inthethickofit19 · 17/06/2020 11:03

BCF I've been meaning to ask, I've been listening to some hypnosis and the guidelines are to

  1. eat what you want and not what you can
  2. eat only when physically hungry
  3. eat slowly
  4. stop when full

It's part of the virtual gastric band app and I'm finding it helpful to rediscover the genuine hunger cues

Is it wrong to combine this with 5:2? I ask because the app talks about not counting calories but obviously I am for FD's.

Also, have you heard of a product called supanova? People are raving about it everywhere. It costs £65 for a months supply and its meant to be 'natural' ingredients to burn belly fat. I'm so tempted because belly fat is my trouble area

Lastly 😅 you advised some time ago to use birch oil on belly fat so as to avoid loose skin. Should I use this now or when I get closer to my goal? I have fat all over yet so the loss on the belly is minimal. I'm 5"2, 9 stone 6lbs. BMI is around 24.

My goal weight is somewhere between 8-8.5 stone

NathanNathan · 17/06/2020 11:21

Thanks BCF! I'm going to adopt the 3 mini fast day approach. Much more doable for me.

emcla · 17/06/2020 11:28

I can recommend the 3 mini fd. I’ve done it and think I prefer it.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/06/2020 11:45

inthethick You need to roughly know calories for FDs^
but you could try your hypnosis the other 5 days

Do NOT get conned and buy from snake-oil merchants on Tinternet

Any pill or potion you buy privately to "burn bellyfat" is almost certainly a scam, sometimes a dangerous one, e.g. phen-phen

Any "raving" on the internet about such products is either from paid posters, or the placebo effect

If there were any truly effective drugs, the NHS (or health service in your country) would prescribe them,
because obesity costs a damn sight more than the drugs would

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/06/2020 11:47

(If you are absolutely convinced that this product is so brilliant, then consult your doctor before taking it and watch their eyes roll)

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/06/2020 11:57

Any drug that effectively - and safely - burned belly-fat would be worth countless billions, the Holy Grail

A Big Pharma firm would buy up the patent - if they hadn't developed it - and would carry out extensive series of human trials for safety and effectiveness

There would be masses of peer-reviewed scientific papers
Headline news on all TV chanels and newspapers

Doctors around the world calling in all their overweight patients to take this wonder drug and save billions for the health service

None of the scams have any of this, of course

OP posts:
DownCherryTreeLane · 17/06/2020 12:26

Unfortunately yesterday's FD did not go to plan. I got to around 3:30pm and started to get a really bad headache that no amount of coffee or water could ease so I ended up making myself a late lunch which within around 30 minutes had gotten rid of the headache. I had a similar experience on Saturday when I tried to fast and started to get a bad headache which, again, was resolved by eating a proper meal (I tried to just have a small snack of fruit but it wasn't enough to help). I don't have diabetes either.

I am not sure whether my FD are too much on top of my NFD habits? Ever since starting 5:2 my appetite has really dropped and so on NFD I tend to naturally just eat between a window of around 3pm-7pm with one or two meals. I'm not sure if that paired with trying to do two 500 calorie fasts a week is too much? I have also noticed the last week or so that I have started to get light headed when I stand up too quickly on FD.

My weight loss is only 2-3lbs/week on average so it is not like I am losing weight too quickly.

Does anyone have any advice? I think for this week I am going to skip the FD and just try and eat 2-3 meals a day with no snacks. It will also be interesting seeing what happens at weigh-in on Saturday after a week of no FD.

NathanNathan · 17/06/2020 12:53

Nice emcla fingers crossed!

BigChocFrenzy · 17/06/2020 13:12

cherry That's quite quick loss, but by no means too much
However, I recommend you tweak your WOE

FDs:
To help avoid headaches, glug down a level teasp Marmite mid-morning and mid-afternoon
(Even if you are not a Marmite fan, regard it as a headache med)

This replenishes salt and other minerals which may be depleted

  • while your body is getting used to fasting and / or you have a large weekly caloire deficit -
which is the main cause of FD headaches

NFDs:
Lower appetite is ok - you are probably burning fat

But one meal per day is not a good system on NFDs
Studies show that one large meal per day over the weeks raises risk of high BP, CVD etc
whereas one small meal won't have enough nutrients longterm
(one 500 cal meal on FDs is fine, because it is small and only 2 x week)

==> Eat at least 2 meals per NFD,
even if 1 meal is only a couple of boiled eggs, or a chicken breast & veg
(Mosely says 2-3 meals even for the 800 cals on BSD / Fast800)

Have plenty of protein at each meal, to be sure you retain muscle
and boost veg too
Cut out starchy carbs & sugary treats if you have no appetite, so you maximise nutrition in what you do eat.

Drink lots of water

OP posts:
MadauntofA · 17/06/2020 13:30

I have discovered these sachets for FD which have salt, and a bit of protein. Only 20cal

5:2 Thread number 91: Keep calm and carry on to goal with our friendly support group
MadauntofA · 17/06/2020 19:42

2nd FD done!

BigChocFrenzy · 17/06/2020 20:08

Well done, madAunt

OP posts:
Syncope · 17/06/2020 20:09

Hi all! Hello to all the new joiners and well done to everyone on their FDs so far this week. Beautiful3 that's amazing!

Had my 2nd FD of the week today. Had salad with some chicken for lunch, and just finished a lovely prawn stir fry for tea. Thanks to whoever recommended the barenaked noodles, the texture is a bit odd but I quite like them, and they do fill you up.

DietChic · 17/06/2020 20:12

Well done Madaunt and Syncope.

FD is almost a mini - 690 cals - lean protein mostly with veg but still over. I may see if I can do a “real” mini tomorrow, to negate this one not being proper. Friday won’t work as we are (almost) socialising. Grumble grumble. I hate when a FD goes over, it’s such a waste of feeling chew-your-hands-off starving.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/06/2020 20:59

Well done, Syncope
You might also like cauliflour rice, just 2 minutes dry fry

I'd call that an FD, Chic and not bother with a mini
It's under the 800 limit, which is OK sometimes on a tough day

OP posts:
inthethickofit19 · 17/06/2020 21:10

Thanks BCF I needed someone to put my head back into perspective before I got conned!

What's the maximum amount of calories I should have in one sitting if my tdee is 1550?

harriethoyle · 17/06/2020 22:33

Kitchen closed on 723 which gives me an almost perfect b2b average of 652.5 for yesterday and today Grin

Beautiful3 · 17/06/2020 23:19

Thank you @Syncope. Wow that soup looks ideal! @MadauntofA I'll have to source some of those! My kitchens closed at 945. It went wrong as soon as my children asked for nutella on toast! I ate some too! Very sad with myself, never mind. Will try fasting again on Friday to do it properly.

Beautiful3 · 17/06/2020 23:21

Well done everyone who fasted today and didn't eat from a jar of nutella!

Vgtasd · 18/06/2020 00:00

Hey lovelies, starting 5:2 tomorrow, fingers crossed for some good weight loss, I'm the heaviest I've ever been with a large belly :(

annabell22 · 18/06/2020 06:12

Can I join? @emcla I am your biological, teetotal twin!

Never technically overweight but have weight I should lose to look better and be healthier. I've done my two FDs for this week and already the scales are heading in the right direction.

spatchcock · 18/06/2020 08:43

Like a couple of you I went over today - maybe 650. I found today pretty hard, I think because I didn't make an effort with lunch - I had rather a sad, hasty lunch of tuna mixed with grated carrot.

Good luck @Vgtasd and @annabell22. And onwards and upwards, Thursday fasters.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/06/2020 09:54

Well done on your b2b, Harriet
Calories right on the nail !

Well done too, Spatchcock on a tough FD
It makes life easier if you plan your FD menu the day before

You managed a miniFD, Beaut
So you only need an extra mini this week

My Jar of Shame is a delic mixed 4 nut butter, which I no longer buy, as I cannot eat it in moderation,
but raise my greasy head later out of an empty jar

Inthethick I'd just aim for 2-3 meals on an NFD
So long as each has a decent amount of protein and veg, you'll be fine
Try to eat no later then 7:30 pm if you can

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