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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 91: Keep calm and carry on to goal with our friendly support group

963 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 12/06/2020 22:41

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Upsidedownrightnow · 15/06/2020 18:29

thank you both for the suggestions, maybe I will try a stir fry, what do you use for the flavour for the stir fry?

When I did 5:2 years ago i remember a butternut squash and chorozo stew, I might try that again too as I am pretty fed up of pork loins now...

MadauntofA · 15/06/2020 18:40

1st FD done! I usually stop eating around 7 anyway, just have herbal teas. Came in about 550. DH ate fish and chips whilst I felt v good with my tuna and mixed veg!
When I have done it before, I have tended to have 4 or 5 similar chicken/ fish and veg/ salad meals. I hate calorie counting so once I have done it a handful of times, I roughly know what I am eating.

DietChic · 15/06/2020 18:43

All done for today - not too bad at 544 calories. Prawn cocktail and fillet steak. Teeth about to be brushed very early!

moonlight1705 · 15/06/2020 18:43

I have fishcakes and peas / salmon fillet and veg for one day and a jacket potato for the other as it is easy to do and keeps me full. I could probably have something less carb heavy but I love them and can have a small one with filling on a FD.

Upsidedownrightnow · 15/06/2020 19:07

oh I really love jacket potatoes too but i'm trying to do low carb at the moment.

I desperately want to weigh myself tomorrow but i said I wouldn't do it until thursday so I would of then had 3 fd since I last weighed.

Is anyone else finding in lockdown the days just get away and your not sure you have done enough?

Today I did a little body balance session then went for a walk for about an hour and a half to the local shops.

I am meant to be studying but i find I can't settle down and concentrate to get the studying done. I feel quite unfocused and all over the place.

My dd may be going back to school later in the week so hopefully that will give me more structure and a little mind space.

robertsmithscorpsebride · 15/06/2020 19:14

Well done mad and diet

Great tips re: fd meals, gonna get some fishcakes Grin

Change of plan for dinner as ds and dh wanted Turkey burgers, I had mine with a massive salad and some green beans.

Beautiful3 · 15/06/2020 19:45

Kitchen closed at 609. Did some excerise today, a long walk with the dog. Well done Monday fasters.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/06/2020 21:59

Well done on nailing your 1st FD, MadAunt

Well done too, Chic, Beaut

upside This is a butternut squash & chickpea stew that veggie 5:2ers have enjoyed
You could add a bit of chorizo to it and have with cauli rice

www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/butternut-squash-chickpea-tagine

OP posts:
Upsidedownrightnow · 15/06/2020 22:16

Bigchoc that looks very yummy thank you Smile I might make that instead next time as I'm getting fed up of the usual!

Im also getting abit fed up of such low carbs, do you think it matters if you eat low carb or not?

Or do you thibk low carb is more important because of how carbs make some really hungry i know they do to me Sad

BigChocFrenzy · 15/06/2020 22:32

Upside I recommended low carb for pp transititoning out of BSD
but most people don't need to low carb to lose well.

You may not have a hunger problem with reasonably healthy carbs; maybe it's only with junky carbs

So I suggested before that you should have sensible portions of oats, potato, pasta, rice, bread etc
but for say 3-4 weeks, just cut out sweet junk - cake, biscuits, choc etc - crisps, pizza, deep-fried food and see if this helps hunger

That's not low carb, just "healthy carb"

OP posts:
Upsidedownrightnow · 16/06/2020 08:05

Bigchoc I think that might be a more manageable way of eating, so I will do that from today. Not eating any carbs makes me feel very restricked and low in energy.

So i have weighed myself today and I am 10.13.6 so I have lost 2lbs this week with low carb, lots of exercise and 5:2 I thought with the low carb it might be more. But I will try not to be discouraged.

So last night I actully felt so so hungry when I was trying to go to sleep normally im fine on fd that was a horrible feeling my belly was actully rumbling

Trevsadick · 16/06/2020 08:48

So half way through my second fast.

I took the advice to have a protein rich dinner last night. And it seems to have helped. Nowhere near as hungry this morning.

Really struggling to drink so much water though. I usually drink sugar free squash.

I downlands a countdown app to my 40th. To try and keep me focused. Its 96 weeks away. So almost 2 years, but I need to focus now or I will still be chunky pudding by then. Grin

robertsmithscorpsebride · 16/06/2020 09:07

Well done on your sv upside that's a good loss.

Wow trev that's determination 😁

Fd number 1 today, haven't done one for a very long time.... wish me luck! Anyone else fasting today?

MadauntofA · 16/06/2020 09:33

Good luck Robert! Did my 1st for a while yesterday. I was dreading not sleeping last night with hunger but actually wasn't too bad.
Trev have you tried herbal teas? Not to everyone's taste, but does distract from the boredom of plain water if you find the right one.

emcla · 16/06/2020 10:28

Fd for me today.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/06/2020 10:36

Congratulations on your SV, Upside

"Healthy carbs (no junk)" looks much more sustainable for you than low carb
Finding a system you are comfortable with longterm is key to weight loss and later weight management,
because weight loss happens over several weeks and months

I suggest a compromise Trev as most people can't manage all of Mosely's recommendations all at once
Diet squash is much better than not drinking enough water
and much better than diet fizz like coke / pepsi, wrt longterm effects on bones & kidneys

Well done on your FD, MadAunt
I like herbal teas too: ginger & lemon / mint / fennel

Good luck on your 1st FD back, Robert
Remember plenty of protein, veg, water
and glug a teasp Marmite (10 cals) to help avoid headaches while your body is readapting to fasting

Good luck too on your FD, emcla and to any other Tuesday fasters

OP posts:
moonlight1705 · 16/06/2020 10:43

I'm joining you today emcla

I've found a salmon recipe with tenderstem broccoli and sesame seeds that looks amazing so looking forward to my dinner later.

Trevsadick · 16/06/2020 12:12

Diet squash is much better than not drinking enough water

I read that the sweeteners can inhibit the benefits of fasting. I am new to this, so that could be completely inaccurate.

But I do think you are right. Compromises can be made, especially at the beginning.

The fact is that I am eating less (and better quality) than I was a week ago. Which was better than the crap I was eating in the office, before lockdown.

I lost a stone, at the beginning of lock down, by simply not getting breakfast and lunch off the delivery van at work everyday. I would also eat buffet lunches during meeting at least once a week. Those changes meant I lost weight even though my diet wasn't perfect. So now I have made more changes, that will help further.

Upsidedownrightnow · 16/06/2020 13:48

I'm just wondering what you guys have for breakfast on nfd? I was having porridge but this morning I had 1 slice of cheese on toast (white bread as its all we had). As i really felt like I needed the energy to get through my workout and it worked and I didnt run out of energy!

I really like brown bread and its healthier so I'm thinking I might get some for breakfast but also wondering what I could add to it to up my protein?

MadauntofA · 16/06/2020 14:23

I generally have poached egg on whole meal toast, scrambled egg and mushrooms, or soaked steelcut oats with a small amount of almond butter. I find I need protein to keep hunger away till lunchtime.

DownCherryTreeLane · 16/06/2020 14:59

FD for me today. :)

Planning on having my staple of two poached eggs on two slices of wholemeal toast and then some strawberries for dessert.

robertsmithscorpsebride · 16/06/2020 15:01

thanks bcf so far so good, had a boiled egg, some gherkins, cherry toms and 3 slices of chicken for lunch followed by 100g strawberries. No headache yet, I've drank quite a bit of squash (i will wean onto water soon) but I haven't stopped running to the toilet yet Shock

not sure yet re: dinner, I have about 250cals to play with

trev that is amazing that those inital changes have made such a difference already Smile

upside I generally don't have breakfast at all (well, unless I'm on holiday in a nice hotel) but eggs seem a good option if you are looking to up your protein, or maybe some yogurt and seeds?

BigChocFrenzy · 16/06/2020 15:06

Good luck, moonlight

Yes, we need protein with every meal, madAunt and should avoid sugary beakfast cereals
I have protein porridge pots, or mix oats with chia seeds or flaked almonds for extra protein.

Also peanut butter powder is a defatted low cal alternative to ordinary PB, for mixing in porridge or Greek yoghurt

Upside I have tinned sardines in tomato / boiled egg & mushrooms / smoked salmon & Philly / chicken breast & peppers as toppings
Look for 100% wholegrain / wholemeal / rye bread if you can

Trev Drinking 2l per day is more important than a bit of diet squash
Essential for health, but also important to enable efficient fat-burning

Try to make the squash weaker if you can and gradually wean off

The real issue imo is with flavoured fizz, especially Coke / Pepsi where the additional additives for high consumers can over time damage bones and kidneys

Mosely says sparkling water - UNflavoured - is fine.
Maybe that's another alternative for you, with ice & a slice ?

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 16/06/2020 15:11

Good luck, cherry as well

OP posts:
inthethickofit19 · 16/06/2020 16:04

Wow lots of chat!

Welcome to the newbies!

I shifted my Fd to Wednesday this week as we had date night last night. I think Monday is too far away now though so might have to fast Sunday but the problem remains going forward! I do like Monday and Thursdays

The scales are looking good and I'm hopefully back into the swing of it