5:2 Thread number 91: Keep calm and carry on to goal with our friendly support group

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

madaunt I suggest starting on 5:2 with at least 12:12, then review progress after 2-3 weeks

If you do 16:8 on its own, you won't have the calorie deficit from FDs to enable weight loss,
so you'd need a daily deficit,
by skipping either breakfast or supper - and not eating back those calories during the 8 hour window.

When I did 5:2 a few yrs back, I just had a v small snack of boiled egg and spinach leaves at lunch then a reasonable meal in the evening on FDs- worked until I stalled at a plateau and got frustrated so gave up! I had less success on 16:8, partly because I love breakfasts generally, and probably didn't have much of a deficit. Will start my first FD tomorrow, aim for 500c and see how I go.

That's a good system you had, MadAunt

Most people hit a plateau at some stage, especially at a "set point" - a weight they have been at previously for a long time;
there are some tactics I can suggest to break a plateau, but mostly it requires patience & persistence

Stay focused and you can nail this

Hi all
Would be great if I could join you guys here, will read through the links and tips in the first post.

Coming from the BSD thread as I've been following that way of eating for almost 12 weeks now and need to move to maintenance of sorts from here.

I've managed to lose about 23lb on BSD, have lost about 40lb since giving birth last Christmas and am now about 3lb from my target weight though feeling pretty comfortable where I am, those last few pounds being my safety net.

Haven't been this weight in years and years so it's really lovely to be in my old clothes again. I swore I'd never forget how good it feels to be this weight and I'm so lucky I've managed to get back here so this time I really can't allow myself to go back to where I started.

Look forward to reading about everyone's journey.

Thanks Bigchoc - thinking back, it was a previous weight that I couldn't get past. I'll call on your expert advice when I hit that plateau again!!

That's impressive weight loss agteach!

Hi, please can I join. I am starting today.

I have a lot of weight to get rid of.

I am planning on 18:6 mixed with 5:2.

My main problem is that while I was married I did alot of exercise. Me and exh had our own business so I had more time and worked when I want.

I lifted weights 5 days a week and kickboxing on 3. But I did, for years subscribe to the 'lots of small meals' a day. I ate quite a lot of calories, as i was burning alot. Meal prep, sweet potato and chicken for most meals. Protein shakes etc. Its became habit and I was so happy with how I looked.

Then I got divorced. Sold the business to exh and went to employment. Far less exercise, 2 kids to look after. Cant shake the habit of eating all day, but doing barely any exercise and the weight has just slid back on.

I am not weighing myself, as that depresses me if I dont see big changes.

I thought today would be a good day to start. I am wfh and will be for the rest of the year. Today I have an online board meeting so will be busy, from 8am until 12 when my fast ends. The same tomorrow and Wednesday.

I also got my kettle bells out, to do some exercise and breaks from meetings. And i will be going for a walk at lunchtime.

My dp naturally doesn't eat until his about 5pm. When he isnt working so, only have to worry about avoiding eating the kids lunch. So no temptation then. He does however then eat most of the evening. So, plan for tonight is (its my turn to cook) is to make a healthy dinner, go for another walk with the dogs, have a bath and get the kids to bed and go watch a movie in bed. Dp is 6ft 4 and bmhas tons of muscle so does need to eat alot or weight drops off him and i dont want him to feel bad about eating.

Anyone got any killer tips for getting through the period of resetting my habits?

Also I downloaded fastic to track my fast window. MFP and an app that reminds me to drink water.

And also does my plan sound OK? Or have I missed something huge.

Thanks for the new thread!

FD today - I only did one FD last week and overate somewhat as DH’s birthday.

Aiming for Monday and Wednesday this week - plus a bit more exercise than usual. This generally means my weight stalls for the first two weeks of exercise but that’s ok.

Good luck fellow fasters.

Morning Monday fasters!

It's evening here. I sailed through today, and closed the kitchen at about 550 cals. THEN a friend came round unexpectedly with some empanadas, straight out of the fryer. WHY.

Great results, @moonlight1705 @Syncope and @DownCherryTreeLane! And good luck to the new fasters.

morning everyone, can I join you please?

I have done 5:2 very successfully a few years ago (lost around 34lb) but I am back where I started (FFS!) with 1 failed attempt at restarting 5:2 last year.

I don't know what TDEE to go for? It gives me 1830 if sedentary exercise ticked, but 2104 if lightly active is ticked - I walk the dog everyday (but not that far as she is old) and I have just started couch to 5k - I'm tending towards 1830 but interested to know what people think.

I'm thinking tomorrow will be my first FD and then maybe thurs or fri? I have my TOTM today and a super sore stomach so no way I can manage a FD today!

Good luck to everyone fasting today....

spatch that is frustrating, but so hard to resist! so do you have to do another fd today?

Hi @robertsmithscorpsebride! I'm no expert but I'd go for the lower figure - it's still a decent whack of calories so that you don't feel like you're missing out. And then maybe go for the upper figure on one day a weekend? That's what I'm doing, and I'm losing (slowly).

34lb is amazing - hold onto that, you know you can do it!

I don't know what I'll do about my empanada (I did stick to one!) but I think I'll just chalk it up to a bump in the road and eat modestly tomorrow.

I'm not very good at sticking to things, but I am making myself post here to be accountable. You could try that to thwart another failed attempt.

wow spatch well done for sticking to just one, it doesn't sound like you've done much damage at all.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, 1830cals is still a fair whack (as you say)

Yes, posting here for accountability will help I think, so long as I can find the time....

Welcome agteacht 🙂
and congratulations on your BSD / Fast800 SV

Strong advice when transitioning from BSD:
increase the calories towards TDEE, but keep to the same low carb Mediteranean as on BSD
so usally about double portions of what you had before - veg, beans, Greek yoghurt, cheese and protein

After a couple of weeks on TDEE; you can gradually add back starchy carbs in stages

Welcome too, Trev 🙂
Combining 5:2 with 16:8 or 14:10 is a good combination
On NFDs, you either skip breakfast, or skip supper for your shorter eating window

As you say you've a lot to lose and you probably want to build up exercise again, I suggest you start at 800 FDs and review progress after a couple of weeks

Most important tip:
Eat meals, nothing between
NO snacking / grazing - it really slows loss for most folk

On FDs, I suggest 2-3 meals for 800 cals
On NFDs, start the WOL with 3 meals
You can always move to 2 meals later if you prefer

Welcome, Robert 🙂
As you are starting C25k, I'd suggest a range of 1800-2000 for the first couple of weeks,
then review progress
However, when you feel satisfied - not hungry, but not stuffed - then stop, even if under TDEE
Some days we all feel less / more hungry, but it tends to even out

Even with totm, try to follow our main NFD tip:
NO snacking / grazing - just eat meals, nothing between
If you want an NFD sweet treat / crisps / glass wine / latte, then have it as your pud or side

Ouch, that was tough on your FD, Spatchcock
You did really well to stick to just 1 - I'd count that as a win for the day, no need to repeat the FD

Good luck today, Chic and any other Monday fasters

I'm just back from the gym - bodystyling class, then 1 hour of free weights and an enjoyable walk back the long way along the Rhine

thanks for the advice bcf
your morning sounds very active.....i'm sat here listening to the rain and the thunder and glad i've already taken the dog out for a walk

so I've had today a piece of toast with peanut butter and some strawberries (needed to eat breakfast so I could take some painkillers, don't normally) (287cals)
lunch was big bowl of stir fry veg with oriental dressing and some sliced chicken and 2 rich tea biscuits (411 cals)
Dinner is going to be chargrilled chicken with vegetables of some description, not sure yet but I have about 1100 cals left after lunch so lots to play with (and that's just to 1800 limit)

I am going to try my hardest not to snack - 4pm is usually the killer for me

robert You might do better with 4 meals, i.e. a small tea that includes protein
e.g. a small prawn / salmon salad

FD here today for me :)

Good luck, Upside

Thank you very much for the welcome @BigChocFrenzy and @MadauntofA

I've read through your first post @BigChocFrenzy but just to check I've understood.

On fast day I count cals but not carbs? Though as you say stick to the BSD principles. Am so used to counting carbs by now.

My TDEE is 1527 sedentary, adding about 200 cals per activity level.

I exercise on spin bike for 30 mins almost every day and generally walk somewhere with buggy but I think to be on safe side I will just count myself as sedentary for now.

I am also sticking to IF although tend to be 14:10 rather than 16:8 most days.

agteacht Normally people can combine 5:2 with any eating preference they have - paleo / veggie / vegan / whatever ....

It's only because you've just come off BSD that I recommended you low carb for a couple of weeks and then gradually add carbs in stages
Experiences of others over the years has shown that BSD needs that transition, or people can go into binge mode

I wouldn't bother to count carbs, just omit added sugar and the starches - potato / pasta / rice etc -as you did on the BSD
Eat plenty of veg and beans without worrying about their carbs

FDs:
However much you exercise, never eat back FD calories

NFDs
AIm for around TDEE
Best to avoid gadgets - they often overestimate calories burned;
Instead useMosely's TDEE Calcc*
(not the TDEE calc in mfp or elsewhere)

He says that exercisers should calculate with one activity level lower than they think they do.

That's low carb for NFDs as well as FDs, in your transition phase

I suggest, considering your exercise level and 14:10, that you aim for the range 1500-1700 calories on NFDs
then review progress after a couple of weeks

If all is going well, then add one moderate daily portion of starchy carbs for the next couple of weeks - vary the type of carb you choose, to check the effect

What is everyone's go to fd meal? I have a pork loin, with veg and gravey, I've been having it each fd for months now and I think it's time for a change 🤔

Upsidedownrightnow mine's either chicken breast/steak with salad or home made chicken soup/veggie chilli.

Thanks @BigChocFrenzy that sounds like great advice. I'm looking forward to eating more fruit!

Upside On FDs, I often have grilled salmon fillet with mixed salad, balsamic dressing plus sometimes 1 slice of rye bread

Alternatively, a prawn or steak stir fry with several veg, plus cauli rice

agteacht I suggest you now enjoy a portion of berries / apple / pear with 1 meal
Avoid juice or dried fruit until a much later stage

Mosely recommends everyone, low carb or not, keep to no more than 2 portions fruit daily