5:2 Thread number 91: Keep calm and carry on to goal with our friendly support group

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Well done on your FD, Moonlight

I'm having a miniFD today
Anyone else ?

I'm off for a walk now as soon as my black coffee has cooled sufficiently to glug down.
I've Tabata and spin classes this afternoon, with the formidable Norman as substitute trainer

I'm doing a mini FD today too, want to boost my progress. Have an appointment with the vet for annual at jabs and that's as exciting as my day will get!! Enjoy your classes Bigchoc

Cat jabs, not for me

Good luck to us both, MadAunt

I was wondering about your jabs

• I'd heard GPs in the UK were moving to online consulations for almost everything,

so a vet would be a cunning workaround !

I hope MadMoggy doesn't mind too much

Madmoggy was fine thanks, especially after a bit of chicken, just hates the travel back and to!

Can I ask about the mini-FDs please? I understand it's limiting calories to approximately 800-1000, but do people tend to do these in addition to the 2 FDs at or instead of one of these? Is there any particular reason or benefit other than faster progress towards targets?

Hi Coffee,I'm just doing one today as a bit of a boost. Some struggle with the 500cals, so find it easier to do 3 minis instead for similar benefit. Some use them once or twice a week for maintenance once they are at their goal weight.

Thanks Madaunt, this is all new to me and I really appreciate all the answers to my questions! That's helpful, good to know!

NFD for me today but we've a birthday in the house so did have some cake. However I only took a small slice and had it with my lunch rather than as a snack. Also did 8km on the exercise bike to pedal off the guilt! 😁

Am planning my FDs for next week, trying to choose days that will be easier depending on what I'm planning for dinner. It's hard when cooking for a family as I still want to eat with them and have what they're having so I'm not drawing too much attention to the fact I'm on a FD as don't want my kids to get too hung up on diet and food issues while they're young.

Will do one FD on a day I'm making them chicken stir fry with rice and will replace mine with cauliflower rice, the other when I'm making them beef stew and will have mine with salad rather than potatoes. That should work ok I think!

How is everyone else getting on today?

That sounds like a good plan Coffee. Well done on the small slice of bday cake!
I tend to do my FDs on busy days at work so most of my cals are kept for my evening meal. My DDs are used to me substituting some carbs for veg/ salad as I didn't want to make it obvious to them, and that seems to work.

I think that would be the best way, but I'm off work at the minute. Also work a Mon/Tues most weeks and not sure about trying b2b FDs. Certainly I eat less when at work as I'm so busy, I think it would be a good plan to try to make at least one of my FDs a work day.

That's good to hear that MadMoggy & vet remain intact, MadAUnt

Coffee The MiniFDs have the same rules as FDs - no booze or junk, but allow 800-1000 calories
They are an invention of these threads, not from Mosely, in case you hunt for them in his books ! 😂

I've been maintaining for several years, so I do 1-2 weekly miniFDs as my maintenance plan

As MadAunt said, I developed the 3 miniFDs as an alternative for those who struggle with 2 x 500 FDs, but want the same kind of loss
If you don't mind slower loss, you can do Mosely's newer system of 2 x 800 FDs

In the weight loss phase, to make sure the WOE is sustainable, it's usually best to stick to just 2 FDs and only add a miniFD if it's been a big social week,
or if you want to boost loss for a few weeks before a special event, e.g. wedding or big birthday

Your menu today sounds good
and I agree that FDs are often easier at work - if you don't work in a kitchen !

Lol, that's true BigChoc, a FD wouldn't be easy for a chef or a baker!

Can I ask about your background regarding fasting? Have you any professional experience or qualifications relating to nutrition? I'm really impressed with your understanding of this topic and with the simplicity in which you can explain it? Has that just developed from your own experience or do you have a background in this area?

I think MM is missing a trick if he hasn't already asked you to join his team!! It's brilliant that you came up with the mini-FD concept before he did - yet he'll be the one to make the money on his 'new' Fast-800 book!!

Perhaps he lurks on this thread and pinched your idea!!

Like most of the v early 5:2ers, I started 5:2 for the health benefits really. Mosely's original Horizon program was about improving his health, especially his T2; weight loss was a happy side benefit for him.

Coffee I only joined MN & 5:2 in September 2013, about thread # 30

However, I'm told by the very earliest MN 5:2ers that Mosely used some of their experiences with 5:2 after his 2012 Horizon program,
to tweak his system for rl application, before he wrote his first book

• reportedly they recognised themselves 😄 A few of them lurk and post occasionally

His original FDs were 500 cals, but he has since moved to 800 cal FDs.

In my experience, after reading posts on dozens of threads,
800 is fine for those with higher TDEE (2400+) - especially men -
or women who prefer to lose more gently & slowly.
However, it is very slow for "hard losers" or shiort women with low / medium TDEE, which is most of our posters.

The miniFD of 800-1000 calories is not something Mosely's taken up,
but it was developed a few years ago by several of us informally,
as a moderate fast that could be added after a heavy week.

I developed the 3 miniFD system of 800-1000 cals because I found a few 5:2ers couldn't cope with 500 or even 800 FDs,
so we needed an IF system that gave about the same rate of loss as 2 x 500 FDs

I'm a recently retired STEM PhD (Maths / Physics / CAE) - so I definitely don't want to join anyone's team now ! -
but I'm used to evaluating & using scientific research in several other fields, e.g. biomechanics

Back in 2013, after some friends & family members had died,
I started analysing scientific papers on healthy aging

I found most of the leading researchers into healthy aging were recommending intermittent fasting
and then I came across Mosely's Horizon program and MN 5:2 threads.
I continue with 5:2 for the possible health benefits and also for longterm weight maintenance

That's really fascinating BigChoc - I wondered if you had some sort of scientific or mathematical background as your understanding and explanation of the details is always very precise (which I appreciate!)

I was partly intrigued by the mini-FD idea as I wasn't sure if it was too simple to boil it down to pure numbers - for example, my TDEE is very close to 2000 calories. In theory if I do a week with 3 mini-FDs at 800 calories I will have a deficit of 3600 calories in total, whereas 2 FDs of 500 calories will give a total deficit of 3000. Therefore doing 3 mini-FDs would potentially lead to greater weight loss for me.

However, I realise it's more complex than that and was wondering if there are other added benefits of more 'severe' fasting other than simply creating the calorie-deficit?

I had read a little about metabolic confusion and could see how varying calorie intake on different days can have the benefit of preventing your body getting 'used' to a steady level of calories bring eaten. Do you think there are additional health benefits of fasting (at around 500 calories) over and above weight loss?

And please feel free to tell me to stop pestering you and go and read up on it all myself if you want to!

Coffee I originally calculated the 3 miniFDs to give the same 3000 calories deficit as 2 500 FDs, assuming that the miniFDs were up to 1000 calories

If you are doing 3 days at 800, that is really Mosely's new system of 800 FDs;
hence you'd really be doing 4:3, which is also an alternative for slightly quicker loss

As I posted, Mosely's original aim on Horizon was to improve his health, especially his T2, not to lose weight - which was a happy side benefit

Research indicates that IF (Intermittent Fasting) can have health benefits:

for issues of insulin metabolism e.g. T2 / preT2, PCOS, certain skin conditions
for inflammation e.g. some types of asthma

Several 5:2ers have reported it has helped their IBS

However the main incentive for me was the research into healthy aging and reducing the risk of age-related conditions such as Parkinsons and help maintain brain health

To be technical, Intermittent Fasting works mainly because of "hormesis" - iincreasing the body's resilience, by alternating brief periods of stress (FDs) with relaxation (NFDs)
the same principal as HIIT boosting physical fitness

IF cycles can improve the immune system - alongside a generally healthy diet & lifestyle -
and boost "autophagy" - the clearing out of older, sometimes damaged cells and replacement by new ones

I've put some scientific references and article at the end of the OP,
in the section entitled "Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health"

Thanks BigChoc, that's really interesting reading! I listened to a podcast by MM yesterday and it's interesting to hear how his view has adapted as more scientific research has been conducted. He didn't admit to lurking on this thread however, but I know he does... Hi Michael!!

I'm partly asking all these (annoying) questions as I'm thinking about the long-term plan and finding what works best for me. I know there is a certain novelty factor at the start and motivation is high, but as time progresses it can be hard to maintain that. I need to figure out what is sustainable for me - is it better to me to only have 2 FDs a week, with lower permitted calories but only having to do it twice, or 3 mini-FDs with more calories allowed but more days needing planned. It's good to know there are options and flexibility.

FD today for me - anyone else?

Morning, FD here too! It really is great to have Bigchoc here for advice - our own MM!!
NSV here this morning as I put on my work trousers after 2 weeks off and they are much looser, with no muffin top. Not yet falling down like Annabel's knickers, but will need a size down soon!
Out of interest Bigchoc, when you were looking into it, what did you find out about types of exercise to reduce effects of aging - combination of strength training and cardio/ Hiit?

Morning, I meant to update earlier. I weighed on Saturday and had a loss of 0.3kg. I was a bit disappointed but then later the TOTM started and I realised why I had felt so bloated. I'm on the pill where it stops it completely except the odd breakout bleed so I wasn't expecting this.

Fingers crossed for next week.

I'm fasting too, coffee
Good luck to us both

Any other Monday fasters ?

Thank goodness the storm has ended the 35C+ days here and it is a perfect cool 23C

Maintenance

As with any weight loss program, the weight loss phase is much more strict than the maintenance phase,
but you do need a longterm maintenance plan with retrained habits, otherwise .....

If you return to your old WOE, you'll return to your old weight & waist

My plan, which has worked for several years, is to have 1-2 weekly miniFDs
This is for health as well as maintenance
and is enough for me to not have to think about the other days,
That's just what suits me; a short, post-meno gym rat
When other 5:2ers get near goal, we often discuss on the thread what would suit them

Good luck too, MadAunt, Moonlight and any other Monday fasters

The ability to do exercise is a good indicator of health at any age

. It is important throughout life, but especially around & after menopause, to do load-bearing exercise such as walking and / or lifting, to maintain bone density
. Strength-training to build / maintain muscle and hence independence
e.g. opening jars, getting up from a chair, avoiding falls etc
. Cardio to maintain a healthy heart & circulatory system:
HIIT a couple of times per week is ideal, but walking is fine for those not up to that.
Running can be tough on the joints for some, but spin class or cycling outside are manageable for most.
. Flexibility training such as yoga, so you can manage everyday life
e.g. picking up the dog's bowl, cutting your toe nails !

Moonlight Any SV is very encouraging during totm
Stay focused, avoid the totm munchies and the FD following the end of totm should release the water bloat and maybe give a bit of a scales whoosh

Well done on your trousers NSV, MadAunt

Just closing the kitchen door right now.... There we go!

On 504 calories, that's me until porridge tomorrow morning. Hope those of you on FDs are doing well today as well.

Thanks Bigchoc.
Well done Coffee and other fasters, kitchen closed here at 520. Soaked oats in the fridge for breakfast!

Well done coffee, MadAunt
Enjoy your porridge / oats tomorrow

Tip:
a level tbsp of chia seeds (about 60 cals) adds extra fibre, plus a little healthy fat & protein to porridge, to make it more filling
Important: Drink plenty of water with it
Excellent for keeping you regular