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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 91: Keep calm and carry on to goal with our friendly support group

963 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 12/06/2020 22:41

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Beautiful3 · 27/07/2020 18:46

Thanks bigchoc. Well done maz! Unfortunately my fast day turned into a mini fast at 713. Never mind, I hope I do better tomorrow!

BigChocFrenzy · 27/07/2020 20:19

beaut I'd count that as an FD and move on
It's an FD anyway under Mosely's more relaxed system which allows 800 FDs for slightly slower loss

OP posts:
Beautiful3 · 27/07/2020 21:21

Thanks BigChoc, well done on your fast day. I got caught out in the heavy rain yesterday too! Had to strip off when I got in and jump in the shower! My trainers are still damp! Think I need to buy a spare pair!

BigChocFrenzy · 27/07/2020 23:23

My FreeRun Nikes are still drying off too
but I have literally about 30 pairs, no other shoes except 3 pairs each of hiking boots and apinning shoes

OP posts:
Beautiful3 · 27/07/2020 23:42

Wow 30 pairs of trainers! I'm actually jealous! I'm definitely ordering a second pair in the morning!

BigChocFrenzy · 28/07/2020 08:40

Morning all Smile
Anyone fasting today ?

It's my training rest day, so just a couple of walks in the sun

Go for it, beaut
The right kit can encourages you to use it

Nearly my entire wardrobe is Nike & Adidas, huge cupboards full Grin
However, I'm an Aspie - you might have guessed ! - and I struggle with other clothes
I haven't worn a skirt or dress for about 30 years and just have 2 trouser suits for funerals - at my age, those are the only formal occasions.

OP posts:
moonlight1705 · 28/07/2020 08:49

Morning all, I'm joining you on a FD today after a lovely weekend.

I did end up having wine quite a biton Saturday night but balanced it by not having any chocolate for dessert over the weekend. Smile

I own one pair of grubby trainers because you do taekwondo barefooted... I do have two entirely white doboks though which are slowly getting less tight. Turns out Korean men did not consider that women with hips might want to do the sport. They are really baggy around my legs as I had to get the biggest size but skin tight over my hips. Angry

BigChocFrenzy · 28/07/2020 09:13

Good luck, Moonlight

TKD will be ace for your fitness and hips
Trouser fit is a good minigoal, "Trousers falling down"

OP posts:
Beautiful3 · 28/07/2020 19:12

Hi BigChoc, my kitchen's closed at 560. I did better today! Hoping to do another fast tomorrow (3 back to back) like I did the past few weeks. I have gone through my wardrobe and bagged up many clothes that I don't like, for charity. So now is a good time for me to buy decent gym wear and trainers. I didn't realise you are an Aspie! I must have missed all the clues!

BigChocFrenzy · 28/07/2020 19:24

Well done on your FD, beaut
I really need a wardrobe clearout too, lots of things I wore once and found boring, but I avoid that sort of chore Blush

OP posts:
moonlight1705 · 28/07/2020 21:34

Good day for me too at 570 and had the most delicious salmon dinner.

Well done beaut, what a great feeling to bag up those unrequited clothes Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 28/07/2020 21:49

Well done, moonlight
I adore salmon too

OP posts:
MadauntofA · 29/07/2020 08:27

Morning all, FD here. Lots of SV and NSVs going on in the group!! I'm loving the way this targets my waist, more so that any other diet I have tried before. I'm naturally a pear shape, so a slimmer waist, as well as for health reasons, looks so much better on me. Also so flexible- not too hard doing it despite the family being at home ALL THE TIME!
I'm in awe of your wardrobe Bigchoc - I'll aspire to that when I retire and can get rid of my work stuff. I'm fully on board with comfort and practicality over fashion!

Coffeeandcookies · 29/07/2020 10:03

Good morning, newbie here! Have just read through a lot of this thread, really appreciate all the good advice and responses Bigchoc.

I've never fasted before but am going to try it to see if it helps make my weight loss more sustainable. I've lost weight in the past with calorie restriction, but eventually get fed up having to weigh and count everything and lose heart. Have been doing calorie restriction using MFP for a couple of months and have lost just over a stone but have more to lose and want to see if fasting works for me to help me keep the weight off once I reach my target.

Am very new to this though, so many questions!

FD today, first ever! Am aiming for 5-600 calories. Have skipped breakfast (large glass of water though!) and am planning am omelette for lunch. Dinner is trickier as an making fish pie for my family, may just take a very small portion and bulk with veg or may take soup instead if too many calories.

My TDEE is 2050 - I have been eating 1800 up until now, am not sure if I'm better to continue aiming for around that on my NFDs or if it's better to eat closer to my TDEE now that I'm introducing fasts twice a week?

BigChocFrenzy · 29/07/2020 10:41

That's an important waist NSV; MadAUnt and it's good you find this WOL so sutainable.
Good luck on your FD today

Many people have found that 5:2 can shift waist fat more quickly, as it can help issues of insulin metabolism that can cause fat to accumulate there more than elsewhere
Women after menopause have found it can work when other methods fail

Welcome, Coffee 🙂
and good luck on your first FD

Drink plenty of water
and glug a level teasp of Marmite later on, to help avoid headaches while your body adapts

For NFDs, I recommend you check your TDEE with Mosely's TDEE Calc
(not the TDEE / calories calc in mfp or fitbit etc)

He says that exercisers should calculate TDEE using one activity level lower than they think they do.
If you do very little regular exercise, then calculate using sedentary

Don't eat back calories on FDs or NFDs via gadgets, or you'll be eating back twice.

If that also gives 2050, then I'd suggest 2000
However, don't eat just for the sake of eating up to TDEE - there is no need
Eat until you are satisfied, then stop

and No snacking between meals

OP posts:
Coffeeandcookies · 29/07/2020 10:59

It was Mosely's calculator I used, so will aim for 1800-2000 on NFDs thanks!

My next question is about coffee - when doing calorie restriction I would have a cup of coffee when I got hungry and found it helped tide me over to the next meal. However I can't take it black. Will it count as a snack if I'm having coffee with milk between meals?

annabell22 · 29/07/2020 11:29

Hi @coffeeandcookies welcome and good luck!

My two FDs are done and I am very pleased with the outcome this week. I set myself a 1.5kg target for July and might fall very slightly short, but after stalling for the first two weeks it's gone well since then.

DH is still ill so there's not a whole lot of eating going on in our house. It turned out to be pneumonia, which is really nasty but possibly better than covid.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/07/2020 13:33

Well done on nailing your FDs, Annabell
Best wishes to your poorly DH 💐

Coffee To avoid it being a snack, the aim is to avoid an increase in insulin levels to any noticeable extent,
so ok if you keep within a total of about 40 cals for the FD

e.g. if you have a cup mid-morning and mid-afternoon, then have 20 cals - I suggest nut milk or skimmed to keep within this allowance

Those who take milk can measure & calorie count in advance their allowance for the day
and put it in a little pot
Same if you take a spoonful of sugar (not ideal, but you can't change all habits at once)

Other useful drinks:
herbal tea (doesn't need milk), beef bovril (about 10 cals),
still / fizzy water with ice & a slice (e.g. cucumber & mint, or lemon)

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/07/2020 13:39

However, it is on NFDs that snacking can slow weight loss and increase insulin resistance

The problems with snacks - not your 40 cals of coffees - on FDs is not that they directly interfere with loss,
but rather that they raise overall hunger levels durng the day and also reduce the calories you have left for meals.
Plus of course, they can prolong the snacking habit and make it more difficult to stop on NFDs

OP posts:
Coffeeandcookies · 29/07/2020 13:41

That's useful, thanks BigChoc! I've already portioned out my milk quota for today, but will try reducing how much I take in my coffee to get it down enough to not cause the insulin spike.

So far, so good! Still have the afternoon and evening munchies to face, but hoping my omelette will reduce hunger pangs sufficiently that I can ignore them.

On the plus side I'm getting more housework done as don't want to be sitting about or I'll boredom eat!

BigChocFrenzy · 29/07/2020 15:56

Some people go with coffee for breakfast, then save all calories for supper - easier than you think
Others have a small lunch and supper

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/07/2020 15:57

The 1st FD, if you get ravenous, have a boiled egg or 2 in reserve and move to an 800 cal FD

OP posts:
Beautiful3 · 29/07/2020 17:06

Welcome coffee. My kitchens closed at 725. Didn't do very well today! Its been hard sticking to 500 calories when I'm preparing food all day long for the family Blush But at least I've done 3 days. Looking forward to a bowl of porridge in the morning! Good luck Thursday fasters, hope you all did better than me!

MadauntofA · 29/07/2020 18:12

Kitchen closed here at 540. Well done Beaut, that's great for day 3! I've made my soaked oats for tomorrow- I'm a big fan of those and porridge for breakfast!

Coffeeandcookies · 29/07/2020 18:20

First FD done! Well, hopefully... Still a while to go until bedtime and had planned to watch MasterChef, but beginning to think that might be a bad idea!

630 calories, roughly equally split between lunch and dinner and one cup of coffee in the afternoon.

Really surprised me that I wasn't hungrier - fully expected to be climbing the walls wanting food, but genuinely wasn't that hungry. Am hoping the evening isn't too difficult as would usually sit down with something to eat once I get the kids to bed and can relax. Might have to go to bed early tonight!!!

Thanks for the help and encouragement!

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