5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

I'm having my usual Saturday miniFD
Anyone else ?

Excellent battle cry, emcla, Singa ! 🤛🏼
"healthy habits and no snacking"

Moonlight For many people, snacking is a roadblock that slows weight loss and stops longterm weigh management
Snacking - even "healthy" snacks - keeps insulin permanently raised, which stops fat-burning on NFDs

I recommend you roughly plan your NFD menu in advance

• you don't have to calorie count, just plan say 4 meals, each with plenty of protein & veg and the rough time you'll eat them.

Make sure the meals are substantial enough

• if you are really very hungry before your next meal, then I suggest increasing protein

You might also be eating too many carbs in your meals, which could make you feel hungry after a couple of hours.
Recommended portion size is up to 100g cooked - not raw - weight of potato, rice, pasta etc or 2 slices bread, not both in the same meal.

However, maybe you are just bored or stressed rather than hungry ?
If you think your meals are sensible, consider what else to keep ocupied in the time before your next meal.

Remember:
it is absolutely fine to be hungry for the hour or so before a meal

• that used to be the norm, before snacking became a thing So don't worry and think you have to eat

Ok I started yesterday! 16:8 and going to combine with the 5:2 on a Monday and Thursday as my fast days!

My eating window is 2-10 as I can combine it with work (I usually finish 1 but it's 2 by the time I get back!) is this too late? DH doesn't get until 8.30 so will likely eat dinner then? Usually something lighter like a stir fry or salad or soup with a bigger meal earlier in the day (around 4).

I do like a glass bottle of wine though too so by stopping around 9 this should naturally limit my wine consumption too!

I’m fasting today - so I’m with you BCF!

I will probably do another FD on Monday - I think I left it too long between fasts. I definitely get into a groove with it.

Good luck to us both, chic

Welcome, mam 🙂 and good luck
That's good if you can make lunch or 4pm your biggest meal of the day
What's important is no snacking / grazing between meals

It helps on NFDs, with any eating window to have your last meal as early as possible
Not just for weight, but for health risks.

So I recommend you have dinner ready / ready to heat up as soon as your OH returns and if you do have wine, keep it to 1 glass with the meal
then nothing afterwards, so no nuts, crisps, wine etc later

NathanNathan, I'm at 12.5 stone, so I've just crept into an overweight BMI. Compounding this is that I had a preventative bilateral masectomy 2 years ago (I am a breast cancer gene carrier) which has completely changed my fat distribution. I am now much more prone to gaining podge around my torso and belly.

I'm in my late 40s anyway, so weight gain around my middle isn't really that unusual or unexpected, but it's meant I've really noticed the difference in my shape as well as the weight gain.The only way to deal with any of this sensibly is to stay fit and not get overweight, I've realised. So here I am.

"Healthy habits and NO SNACKING!"

Just checking in again after a busy week.

So last week I had a bad week and did not do any fasts and I overate quite a lot. I ended up gaining 3lbs, although as @BigChocFrenzy told me it was likely to be mainly water weight.

I had a much more sucessful week this week and did two 500 calorie fasts. I weighed myself today and I have lost 6lbs this week although I know most of that will have been the water weight from the week before. I have now lost 10lbs in around 6 weeks which I'm really happy with. :)

I feel like this week has felt really easy. The only thought I have had to pay to my eating is deciding when my two fast days are and then the rest is effortless. I have been a lot more laid back on my NFD (e.g. having crisps with my lunch, having burgers and chips for one of my meals, etc) so it is really encouraging seeing that I have still lost weight as I feel like I can maintain this way of eating indefinitely.

One thing I have found really helpful is having dessert everyday, even on FD. I used to eat lots of chocolate late in the evenings so I was worried that having dessert would be feeding into that habit but I find that by having something sweet to eat straight after dinner it reinforces to myself that I have now finished eating for the day. On FD I just have some berries but on NFD I tend to have berries with a small chocolate bar or one scoop of ice-cream.

DownCherryTreeLane I’m the same. If I have a pink lady apple or a square of dark chocolate after a meal I feel satisfied.

I’m fasting today too. I’ve cut my alcohol intake down over the last few weeks. Last night I had some Prosecco and today I woke feeling awful with a pounding sore head. In fairness, I had a headache yesterday before the alcohol, but it’s definitely made it worse.

I have some sweet potato and lentil stew left (300 Cals), so going to have it with a huge salad later.

Congratulations on your SV, CHerry
You've found a system that works for you and sounds sustainable

I hope your head is better now, Maz
You've done well cutting down alcohol over the weeks, but sounds like a heavy night yesterday..

@downcherrytreelane wow thats amazing weightloss well done do you mind me asking how much you need to loose? If i lost 6lbs in a week i would be over the moon

@MazDazzle I think drinking less really helps, I only drink about once per week but my eating the next day is terrible and if i drink alot it can knock me off track for 2 days

So does anyone combind 5'2 with keto?

@BigChocFrenzy I know you always mention low carb and I know it makes sense and I know it will work but it makes me feel scared sometimes to venture in. I think i am ready to start going lower carb from next week not carb free just lower carb

Upside Many low carbers have added 5:2 to their WOE and have done very well
and low carb 5:2 is also a good way to transition from Fast800 / BSD

However, rather than change radically to Keto / lc, I suggest you try cutting out all junky carbs
e.g. cake, biscuits, choc, crisps, pizza, deep-fried food etc
and keep your portion of healthier carbs within 100g cooked weight or 2 slices bread per meal

If you are reducing carbs, try to eat at least 5 portions of different veg per day
but keep fruit to no more than 2 portions per NFD and cut out dried fruit & juice

You can increase protein a bit
Mosely suggests also boosting beans, peas & lentils, as well as adding Greek Yoghurt

The key to good progress on 5:2 is making sure you don't eat back the FD deficit on NFDs

For some, once they get into a system, this becomes natural without much effort
and they just eat meals they like, mostly healthy, with no snacks between

For sugar addicts, that usually means cutting out junk
For others, it may mean cutting back on booze, or just portion size of healthy food

Most of us know our weaknesses and if not, mfp can reveal them

Yes agreed! I've had to cut out my beloved sugar and junk, to be able to eat properly within my set calories. Yesterday we had a pizza delivered, (daughter's birthday treat). I was worried adding up my calories for the day, as I'm on 1200 on my nfds. But I managed it, and ended the day on 1152! Having lots of salads and vegetables for lunch/dinners really helps me feel full up and saves on calories.

Hello all, mind if I join in?

I stepped on the scales last week for the first time in a very long time, and the result was... not good. I knew I'd put on a lot of weight but seeing the numbers made me realise I needed to do something.

Until a few years ago I was one of those people who can eat whatever they like and never gain weight, but that's definitely no longer the case! So having to think about what I'm eating is fairly new to me. Yesterday I read through all of this thread and the one before, and feel much better informed - BCF thank you so much for all the explanations and guidance you post!

I love numbers/tables/spreadsheets so I'm tracking everything I eat on MFP, on both FDs and NFDs, so that I can get a good picture of how I'm doing. My plan is to weigh myself weekly and take measurements monthly. I know it's going to take time! I started with about 50 pounds to lose to get to my target weight. After my first week I've lost 5 pounds but I know that rate won't continue.

I'm looking forward to chatting with you all, I'm sure I'll have lots of questions.

Hi @Syncope, welcome to the group!

Hello @syncope and welcome

I had a think about why I snack after your post @BigChocFrenzy and I have come to the conclusion it is entirely boredom snacking. I don't need it, I don't feel hungry in particular; my meals are healthy and full of veg, protein and carbs (possibly a bit carb heavy). I snack when I am working at my computer or something similar. I cannot describe the feeling but guess it is like an addict needing a fix of something/anything right there and then. So frustrating because i feel if I could give up snacks then my weight would fall off quicker but my will power is shot to pieces.

Welcome, Syncope 🙂
and well done on your SV, good start

beautiful Salads and veg are excellent habits

I can't remember - did you check that really low 1200 for NFDs on
Mosely's TDEE Calc ?

Moonlight That's useful for you to know that it is not bunger, just boredom / habit
Can you think of distraction techniques that would work for you, to form healthy habits ?

I'd suggest as soon as temptation hits:
have a glass of water, then clean your teeth, as the fresh taste often discourages nibbling.

If all else fails, you could have chopped low cal raw veg - celery, carrots, cucumber - prepped in the fridge
but NO dip, sauce, nuts, rice cakes etc with it, just the veg

If you snack on crap, then either don't have any in the house, or have it in a box with a padlock.
You can always stick a reminder to yourself on the box, that you have to read as you unlock

Another tactic:
mfp anything you feel tempted to eat, before you get it out

Welcome syncope.

Yes but I didn't understand it Bigchoc, because it looks too high. Here's a screen shot of it.

Does that mean I should be on 1400 calories?

Beautiful On NFDs, you should aim to be around TDEE, which is 1,789
So aim for 1750-1800 if you are counting NFD calories

This is quite a normal figure for NFDs, because remember it is a "maintenance day" not a "diet day"

1200 is far too low

• it is intended for someone on a standard daily diet, with a daily calorie deficit of 500+,

not 5:2 Don't aim so low, as it is unlikely to be sustainable; in fact may lead to binges

One advantage of 5:2 is that we use the NFDs to retrain habits for maintenance later

The calorie cycling on 5:2, with NFDs on TDEE, helps keep metabolic rate high

Hello everyone, room for one more? I'm attempting a fast day tomorrow. I have done 5:2 once before a couple of years ago. I started out this year on the fast 800, then went on to 1200 cals a day. However, lately I have been having binges and actually put 1.5 back on the other week! So I thought I'd try with the %:2 again, see how it goes. I'm a bit confused as I thought it was now 800 cals a day on fast days? I shall stick to 500 tomorrow though, just in case.
Oh yeah, I'm also 5'6.5" and 12 stone 7 lbs (Started the year off at 14stone 12lbs.) Lowest weight I've been in years! I'd like to get down to about 10st 7lbs.
Good luck to all on a fast day, and thank you for letting me join your thread.

Wow kittycat you’ve done really well. Congratulations on your weight loss so far!