5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Evening all. Closed the kitchen at 496 a few hours ago. Still feeling pretty good, though looking forward to breakfast after my C25K tomorrow!

Take care emcla.

Well done Harriet Maz and emcla. Thanks @BigChocFrenzy and @emcla. I'm sorry you're not having a good week emcla. I hope you're okay? Well done on your mini fast.

Well done singasona and moonlight!

HI all, so today i tried to fast but its nearly my TOM and i ended up on just under 800cals so we will have to call it a mini fast. Not too bad considering I felt like trying to eat the entire world today.

Sorry to hear that emcla.

500 Nathan. Then if the second day is tougher, I feel I can go up to 600-650.

My FD stew only came to 300 cals, which is a good job as I think I ate my weight in icing and cake scraps. And here’s me saying I find FDs a piece of cake! Not quite what I meant, but ah well. It would have been much worse had I eaten To my TDEE as normal and then made the cake.

The cake making was eventful. I split the sponge in half trying to get it out of the tin and the icing was melting as I was trying to ice it. I could almost hear Sue shouting ‘5 Minutes left!’. In the midst of all this my daughter’s guinea pig died, slowly. She was heartbroken. We’ve put a soft toy in the age with the remaining piggy so he’s not lonely.

Well done to everyone who fasted today. I hope your day was a bit more successful than mine!

Thanks everyone for your kind words. This is such a lovely and supportive group in every way.

Night night x

You did well to nail your FD at totm, Upside
Up to 800 is definitely an FD - the 800 is for occasions like that, when you need the extra
A miniFD is 800-1000

Well done too, Moonlight, SInga, Maz

Enjoy your C25k, SInga
I'm off to the gym in a few minutes

Nathan, Maz On b2b you are allowed 650 cal FDs

What also works is to have FD1 on around 500, in case you don't fancy FD2 after all
but if you do FD2, then you have 800 cals, to make up the 1300 b2b total.
This works, because you start FD2 already fasted

Being on maintenance, I only do miniFDs
When I do a b2b it's a minib2b, i.e. 800-1000 cals per day

Woohoo I've broken through the barrier, 9 stone 8lbs this morning

I've just looked back at my logbook and hadn't realised that I was 9st12.7 just after the birth. But 6 months later I was 10st 7lbs! Just got to keep going...

My goal is to get to 9stone 4lbs next. Final goal is somewhere between 8.5-9stone.

Hi all - I’m going to try for a B2B today and tomorrow- all stocked up and DH is away again so best to get it out of the way while he is!

Congratulations on your SV, inthethick
Onwards to your next minigoal !

Good luck on your b2b, chic
Remember you get extra calories for this, as upthread

@BigChocFrenzy thank you 😊 I weighed this morning and was 10.0.2 its the lowest I've been in weeks before I had my fasting break and birthday I was 9.11 - 9.13 so perhaps next week I will be back there.

I have worked out twice this week and I'm going to try to do another workout today and then hopefully on the weekend which should mean I'm then a moderately active person (next week aiming for 5 days working out but if I mange only 3-4 it's not too bad). So my tdee if I workout like this every week will be 1989 so nearly 2000 cals this makes me feel much happier and hopefully on a few days I can stay well quite abit below and start actully shifting weight instead of going up and down between 2 numbers 😂😂

Wow b2b sound hardcore, are there more benefits to fasting this way instead of 2 broken up fdslike a Tuesday and Thursday for example?

Hello all. Upside, your current weight is my goal weight. I'm regarding you with (positive) envy.

C25K was interesting. I had a 12-minute test today (MapMyRun users will recognise what I'm talking about), which is a long slow warm up with a fast 12-min interval in the middle, then a long slow cool down. As I'm just starting back to running, I walked the warm up and set off on a steady jog for the 12 mins, but going up a short hill 3/4 of the way through it really wiped me out. I was fine getting back home, but once I came into the warm I suddenly felt dizzy and weak, and needed to sit down.

I am thinking is this a combo of yesterday being my second FD (I've always run "empty" first thing in the morning unless fit enough to go for 10K+, which I'm nowhere near right now), starting my period yesterday, and possibly being slightly under-hydrated (drank just under a litre of water yesterday). Hope this doesn't become a regular feature of my Friday morning exercise, though.

Enjoyed my toast a LOT this morning, though!

Upside Some folk like to get the 2 FDs over with; others do better with single FDs
The best system for an individual is the one they can do consistently over the week.

Singa I would definitely avoid C25k or other cardio (especially swimming) the morning after a b2b2
It won't be your best performance because your glycogen tank will be empty

You might need to return to single FDs, with your running,
but I'd avoid fasted morning cardio even after a single FD except for very experienced fasters.

Thanks, BigChoc. I am on single FDs (Tues and Thurs), but apparently Weds in the middle wasn't enough to fuel me up for this morning. Though potentially my menstrual cycle hasn't helped this week.

Next Friday I'll try eating a date or a banana before I go out. I used to do that before a longer run to make sure I had some fuel in the tank without weighting myself down, so maybe I need to do that after a FD as well?

In other news, I'm looking at the Les Mills on Demand classes as a way to get into weights/strength training. Any 5:2 folks on here doing them? What do you think?

Day 1 done - 570 calories so a tiny bit of wiggle room tomorrow!

@Singasonga as i am only 5foot2 my current weight means i am now over weight and I need to get down to 9.10 stone to be within a healthy weight range. My healthy BMI is between 7.3-9.10 which I think being 7.3 stone is crazy for me, I would be way too skinny.

i have just started les mills on demand and i'm really enjoying it, so far i have been doing about 30mins of body combat then some of my own strength training, they are easy to follow and the time goes pretty quickly :)

Next week i want to try bodypump and GRIT which are hit classes.

Well done, Chic

Yes, sounds like you need a small breakfast after an FD, SInga before training
However, I recommend having the banana with some walnuts or almonds - best not to have fruit on its own and you need protein after the FD.

Or whizz the banana into a protein shake or milk, as a smoothie.

Well done chic.

Great news on Sv inthethick. Whoop whoop.

I did a mini yesterday. Not going to weight this week. Just maintain healthy habits.

On another note , I was messaging a friend of mine who’s very much into clothes etc and always looks great. I haven’t seen her in a while but she posted a picture of her self looking v slim. I thought she wasn’t always that slim so asked her how she manages it. She said I’m really lanky like my mum. Thought nothing more of it. Anyway another picture posted of her ds from 4 yrs ago and I did a double take. She looks much bigger and still great. She’s in her 40’s. I just thought she has to watch her diet. Naturally lanky or thin , not sure this exists. Anyway have a lovely weekend everyone and remember healthy habits and no snacking x

Well I STS this week as I've had a really snacking sort of week! Just couldn't stop wanting extra throughout the last three days despite the FD being good.

Must do MFP everyday to show me my actual intake rather than guessed.

Anyway have a lovely weekend everyone and remember healthy habits and no snacking x

That sounds like it would make a good 5:2 battle cry, emcla. I'm now imagining Matt Berry shouting, "Healthy habits and NO SNACKING!"

Thanks upsidedown, I am going to look into Les Mills today I think. Very much understand your point about relative heights and weights - I am 5.10", so 10 stone on me is a pretty healthy BMI. I'm nowhere near that at the moment, though. Here's to getting to our healthy BMIs!

moonlight - I need to do MFP every day, too. Unfortunately I really like to cook, which means I need to enter recipes and sort out portion sizes ALL THE TIME. It's not impossible, but it is a bit of a time suck...

I'm also 5ft 10 and nowhere near 10 stone what are you aiming for SingaSonga? I've not been below 13st in the last 10 years, but I think really I should be about 10st... I'm determined to get there!

For people who know about Les Mills, what equipment do you need for the home classes generally?

@emcla I think most women have to watch their weight. I knew a woman who is petite, once I asked her how she stays so slim. She said that she doesnt do anything, shes naturally slim like her mum. My bil moved into her street. He told me that she runs every day! I don't know why some women keep their excerise/diets a secret, unless they dont want others to be slim too?! My mother has a friend (in her 40s) who also professed to be naturally slim who never had to worry about her weight. I visited this friend for the day and noticed her add up all of her calories every time she ate. She explained to (10 year old) me about saturated fats and to avoid eating it, if it's over 5%. So I believe behind most slim women is a healthy eating plan. If this 5:2 plan work for me, I'm telling everyone about it!

My sister is naturally thin but I have seen her portion sizes. Although she eats everything then she will be satisfied with about half of my plateful.