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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 15/04/2020 22:43

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
BigChocFrenzy · 09/06/2020 09:54

Welcome back, Waspie
7kg is an important loss, but if progress has stalled, it is usually due to eating back the FD deficit on NFDs,
especially if there is too much junk / alcohol content

Men usually lose more quickly on any weight loss method - biology sucks sometimes !
I recommend you calculate both your TDEE and his, to get an idea of how much less you need,

Best calculator to use: Mosely's TDEE Calc
(not the TDEE calc in mfp or elsewhere)
He says that exercisers should calculate with one activity level lower than they think they do.

Never use gadgets to estimate exercise calories for NFDs, just allow for this via TDEE

Never eat back FD calories,
no matter how much exercise you do.

Well done on your 1st FD, mam

I suggest weighing naked, first thing in the morning after your 2nd FD of the week, after loo but before eating or drinking anything

As a rough guide, the recommendation for NFD "Treats" - cake, biscuits, alcohol, crips etc - is 10% of TDEE,
which you can have either as a small treat every NFD, or as a larger treat on just 2 NFDs
Once you have reached goal, this can increase to 20% on maintenance

No need generally to count calories on NFDs unless you prefer to,
but I do recommend you count treat calories, before eating / drinking them

What helps sensible NFDs .....

5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

  • NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
  • NEVER snack / graze between meals - eat meals, nothing between
  • AIm for a daily eating window of no more than 12 hours, called 12:12 e.g. first meal at 8am and finish last meal by 8pm
  • On NFDs, you can have sensible amount of treats (e.g. alcohol, lattes, pies, crisps, sugary treats) BUT only part of a meal, not on their own
  • Lots of water & veg each day
  • Cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)
  • Plenty of sleep

Well done on your FDs too, Emcla, Beaut

Good luck today, moonlight and any other Tuesday fasters

MrD How about you ?

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 09/06/2020 10:02

Upside Yoga / balance is ideal for FDs
If you feel tired after a week, then you may need to make one of these days your training rest day,
when you only have a relaxed walk outside

Your plan sounds like "Moderately active" if the 30 minute sessions are reasonably vigorous, so you are breathing heavily for most of the time
So I suggest you set this level for 2-3 weeks, to give long enough for results.

After this, review progress and tweak up / down depending on loss and hunger / compliance

  • TDEE is an average over the population, so individuals may find their "real" TDEE is higher or lower

Note:
you will get better results if you use the exercise calories to increase portions of healthy food, not just treats
and keep to the 10% TDEE treat limit

OP posts:
Waspie · 09/06/2020 11:09

I've caught up now. Some good SV's - well done all!

It does sound as though some of you, like me, are finding it challenging Flowers

I'm using MFP to track my calorie intake and I'm not gaining weight - I'm just not losing it either. My weight loss over the past 4 months hasn't been linear so I'm holding onto that. I have various stressers going on - work, peri-menopause and problems with an elderly relative's health which have meant that I've consumed more alcohol than NHS guidelines over the last few weeks! I've not been snacking though, which is something. I've just recalculated my TDEE BCF and it's 1748. DP's is 2000. I have just over 4Kg to lose to get back to "normal" BMI range although ideally I'd like to lose around 10Kg.

Hi moonlight - Yes, men are annoyingly good at this weight loss lark. Good luck on your FD today!

Hi Beautiful3. What's that saying? "Can't live with them, can't kill them!" Wink Grin

moonlight1705 · 09/06/2020 20:49

Ended the day on 601 because I did have an extra apple after dinner.

BigChocFrenzy · 09/06/2020 20:57

Well done, Moonlight

OP posts:
Singasonga · 09/06/2020 22:01

Evening, all. Kitchen has closed at 519 tonight - am quite hungry on this fast day! Looking forward to breakfast and a short run tomorrow morning.

Beautiful3 · 09/06/2020 22:30

Is the 4:3 diet more effective for weight loss? It means fasting an extra day.

Upsidedownrightnow · 09/06/2020 22:53

Does anyone know the best plage to buy cauliflower rice in the UK? I'm thinking frozen would be best!

Also how do you prepare yours?

I used bare naked rice before which I thought was a good rice replacement, but I heated it in a pan with salt and chilli powder as it was very bland!

Upsidedownrightnow · 09/06/2020 22:55

Also bare naked rice is expensive its like £2 a bag which would only be 2 servings a real bag of rice could last me for ages and is less than £2.

But i'm now low carb so real rice is fully off the menu until I reach my goal weight and then I plan only to have it at weekends!

BigChocFrenzy · 09/06/2020 22:58

Well done, Singa

Beaut 4:3 is quicker for people who are disciplined - very useful if they are in a hurry for a special event

However, people who struggle with 5 NFDs tend to automatically - not realising - compensate for the extra FD by eating back the extra calories;
hence loss is no quicker

It depends whether you are reasonably confident you won't eat more on the 4 NFDs
and whether it will be sustainable for you

You could always try it for say 3 weeks, to see if it gives you a boost,
but do revert immediately to 5:2 if you struggle, or start to binge on NFDs

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 09/06/2020 22:59

Upside I'm a v lazy cook, so I buy the frozen.
I dry fry for about 4 minutes with salt, pepper, garlic, chili

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 09/06/2020 23:00

I usually stick it straight in a stir fry, to cook with the other frozen veg
< shamelessly lazy alert Blush >

OP posts:
Upsidedownrightnow · 09/06/2020 23:35

Yea i think frozen would be best, I'm not a lazy cook and enjoy cooking but I'm thinking if i spend my time cooking a nice curry or something would be better than making rice Grin

I recently got an instant pot and made myself a beef stew tonight! It was tasty and the meat was so tender, it only took half an hour Shock it was less than 300 cals for the stew and veg on the side so I'm looking forward to making more low carb meals like this so I can enjoy tasty food but not be overweight

73kittycat73 · 09/06/2020 23:41

Hi Waspie and moonlight1705 I was just discussing this with my mum yesterday. My brother complained that he'd put on a stone since lockdown. However, he seems to go to the gym once and he pings back! (Ok, maybe not a whole stone last time Wink but he still lost it really easily! Envy Grin )
Upsidedownrightnow I saw some cauliflower rice in Sainsburys online a couple of days ago. I've never tried it before so don't know what it's like?
Congrats to everyone on their fast days, and thank you BigChocFrenzy for the amazing advice you give. Going to go for my second FD on Thursday.

Syncope · 10/06/2020 06:58

Well done everyone on your fast days yesterday.
@Upsidedownrightnow I don't have an instant pot but I do use make a beef stew in my slow cooker from time to time - no effort for a delicious and surprisingly not too calorific meal. Love it.

I'm going for my second FD of the week today.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/06/2020 08:41

Good luck, kitty, Syncope and any other Wednesday fasters

That stew sounds delicious, quick & easy too, upside

OP posts:
MazDazzle · 10/06/2020 09:38

I have an instant pot too Upsidedown. Between that and 5:2 it feels like I’m a member of two cults! Grin

I had planned on fasting yesterday, but I was up through the night with my youngest (tried to settle him in his own bed, then tried him in beside me, didn’t work. Then he wet MY NEW bed!). Felt rotten yesterday morning, so parked the FD. Here I am today though!

GOOD LUCK EVERYONE!

BigChocFrenzy · 10/06/2020 11:19

Eek, maz but good luck today

OP posts:
MazDazzle · 10/06/2020 11:27

Thank you BC. I’m feeling very optimistic today. Just had an online PT session and I’m goosed, but buzzing. It’s also a relief to speak to someone else other than my 3 kids!

How’s the weather with everyone else? The rain here has been relentless this last week or so. We spent a solid 7 days stuck inside, other than when I went to Tesco for a food shop with my youngest. Don’t mind going for walks in the drizzle, but it’s been really heavy and windy. My neighbour’s trampoline blew away!

Beautiful3 · 10/06/2020 14:33

Thanks BigChoc. I fasted today. My fast days will be Monday, Wednesday and Friday. I'll only do it on a temporary basis, then switch back to 2 fasts per week. I'll keep logging everything I eat on mfp on my nfd to make sure I don't go over!

73kittycat73 · 10/06/2020 20:01

*As a rough guide, the recommendation for NFD "Treats" - cake, biscuits, alcohol, crips etc - is 10% of TDEE,
which you can have either as a small treat every NFD, or as a larger treat on just 2 NFDs
Once you have reached goal, this can increase to 20% on maintenance

What helps sensible NFDs .....

5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

  • NEVER snack / graze between meals - eat meals, nothing between
  • On NFDs, you can have sensible amount of treats (e.g. alcohol, lattes, pies, crisps, sugary treats) BUT only part of a meal, not on their own
  • Cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)*

Hi BigChocFrenz I'm really sorry to be a pain, you've probably explained this countless times already on many threads, but I have a couple of questions I hope you don't mind answering?
Only 10% of you diet being treats-I thought as long as you stick to your calories, whatever you want to eat is OK? Why only 10%?
Why no snacks? Only snacks with meals?
Why no diet fizzy drinks?
I'm just curious, does it all aid greater weight loss (Almost typed gain! Shock lol.) or is there some other reason? I hope you don't mind me asking?

NathanNathan · 10/06/2020 20:04

@73kittycat73 BigChoc will doubtless explain better, but it's all to do with spiking your insulin and the effect this has on fat burning.

Jason Fung talks about it in the two compartment problem: thefastingmethod.com/obesity-solving-the-two-compartment-problem/

Beautiful3 · 10/06/2020 20:06

Kitchen closed at 563! Nursing a mug of camomile tea.

73kittycat73 · 10/06/2020 20:08

Doh, bold fail!

73kittycat73 · 10/06/2020 20:09

Thank you NathanNathan will go investigate your link now. Smile