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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !

980 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2019 14:48

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
EssentialHummus · 11/09/2019 09:48

SV - am now 0.5 kg from maintenance. Very happy with that!

Laniakea · 11/09/2019 09:50

Hummus that’s amazing - well done! You must feel brilliant Grin

Skyejuly · 11/09/2019 10:03

Wow well done everyone. It does seem women hold onto more fat around the middle and hips
I know I do! X

aberjenagain · 11/09/2019 10:25

Fantastic hummus, congrats!

BigChocFrenzy · 11/09/2019 11:10

Congratulations on your SV and inches, bwydda
and tell that too to MrBwydda

Congratulations on your SV too, hummus
That's fab you are so near to goal !

Good luck on your FD, VanGogh
That's an excellent plan for the day

skye That's good to have a small treat if you fancy it, some NFDs
That's exactly what "normal eating" on NFDs means
The difference to your old WOE is that you are retraining to sensible and moderate amounts, just like you did yesterday

OP posts:
Fillybuster · 11/09/2019 14:50

Bwydda well done to you and to your dh! Yup, definitely annoying that men seem to drop weight more easily, but you did say (I think?) that he has more to lose...I’m sure that makes a difference too!

Hummus, that’s amazing!!! What a fab result StarFlowers Go you!!

Thanks for the suggestion BCF -
I think you’re spot on about the impact of a low calorie NFD on my ability to fast well today. And I really want to maintain focus as the scales were down another 0.5lb this morning! It’s been tough again so I’ve had a couple of hard boiled eggs, a can of palm hearts (expensive, but yum...!!) and a small portion of gazpacho for lunch. Totals about 250 cals which is way more than I would normally allow myself but felt quite necessary. I think I’d rather have a “successful” 700 cal day than one where I end up eating loads of sugary stuff mid afternoon because I’m cold and hungry!! Also picked up some new herbal teas and sparkling water so am stocked up and ready to face the rest of the day Smile

Good luck to the rest of the Wednesday fasters Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 11/09/2019 19:57

Well done on your SV, filly
Yes, it was fine to allow yourself a bit extra, as yesterday was so low cal
Sounds a good week so far

OP posts:
IceniSky · 11/09/2019 19:59

Well done all.

About 550 here. Large portions of quorn and bean chilli for dinner, but have had teas with milk all day.

BMI 23. Was 25. Not sure what my goal is, but I may give it till October then maintain. Not sure how.

DH gone from BMI 30 to 27.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/09/2019 20:48

Well done on your FD, Iceni

and congratulations to you and MrIceni for the reduction in BMI

once at goal, you never want to have to lose that weight again*
*
Maintenance:

If you return to your old WOE, you return to your old weight & waist

So your new WOE will keep some 5:2 habits

  • Most folk need to keep up some form of regular fasting Some folk do 6:1 or even 13:1 (1 FD per fortnight); others, who want to relax and eat above TDEE, do 5:2 with 800 FDs and eat back the deficit; a few just do daily 12:12 and that is enough with good habits
  • whatever suits you and works

Maintenance Habits for Everybody
+Weigh regularly, at least weekly
If you exceed Happy Range, return immediately to full 5:2

  • NO snacks or grazing, ever - and have treats only as part of a meal.
  • Keep within NHS alcohol limits
  • Keep sweet / junky / alcohol treats to sensible amounts; (If you like a guideline, then limit is total 20% of weekly calories)
  • Drink lots of water and restrict drinks with added sugar or sweeteners
  • Eat lots of veg of different colours, aim for at least 5 per day and a fruit.
  • Regularly include beans, lentils, peas, plain yoghurt, nuts / seeds.
  • Have breaks from fasting during vacations, but keep good habits and before you start, note in your calendar the day you will return to plan and have your next FD.
OP posts:
Fillybuster · 11/09/2019 23:47

Closing the kitchen at just over 600. Thanks for the suppose today BCF Flowers Have a feeling scales won’t be shifting in a hurry so need to decide if I have another FD tomorrow (which would be 3 plus a mini in 7 days). Definitely not fasting again until Monday so quite tempted to squeeze another one in.

Iceni - well done to you and MrI on your losses! I’ve ordered berbere spice so am looking forward to making your curry “properly” next week.

Aber - here’s the first courgette with teaspoon for scale Shock Trying to decide between stuffed courgette (marrow...?!) and courgette and lemon cake. Mmmmm...

5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !
Fillybuster · 12/09/2019 07:20

Support not suppose!

Grrrr. Up 2lbs this morning.....that shouldn’t be possible!!!

onko · 12/09/2019 07:50

V nice courgette Filly! Ours failed this year, just as I got a taste for courgetti and bolognese ☹️. But we do have a good crop of aubergines.

Amazing SVs bwydda and iceni.

FD for me here - anyone else? Will be tough as yesterday’s NFD may have been overly virtuous.

BloggersBlog · 12/09/2019 09:24

FD here too! Going to have a bag of Cambridge bites that I have left. They are very filling and keep me full for most of the day with 1-2 litres of water. Then a prawn stir fry. 200 mls skimmed milk for coffees and hopefully I wont be too hungry if I can eek the coffees out Grin

What are you having Onko?

Skyejuly · 12/09/2019 09:41

Meant to be a fast day here but yesterday was unexpected chaos and i only had 620 in the end. Might aim for a FD but if I go to 600 or 700 I wont fret as I will just eat healthily and start again after a NFD x

bwydda · 12/09/2019 09:48

Skye- if you do a fast day today your allowance is 650 anyway due to b2b- so both yesterday and today would count as fd.

I'm on a nfd today, and was yesterday but have come down with a terrible cold and am barely eating. Most of my calories are being spent on honey lemon drinks and hot chocolates .

onko · 12/09/2019 09:49

Hi bloggers - I’m afraid I’m not good at planning my meals (look away BCF!) and my food choices are beyond uninspiring. Will either try to go till the evening on liquid only then have a decent sized protein and veg meal plus fruit or if I need daytime sustenance I’ll go to M&S and see what I fancy (TONS of sub 300 cal options) and have soup in the eve.

Have just googled Cambridge bites....may have to investigate further....

Skyejuly · 12/09/2019 09:51

Oh- Thank you for the information. I had no idea. I am glad I went to bed after my dinner as I was tempted to have biscuits! Xx

I dont think I have lost much weigh (about 3lbs...) but I feel different. I feel less bloated anyhow x

OohMrDarcy · 12/09/2019 09:57

Morning all

Lots of lovely SVs this morning - well done to all (plus partners!)

My two chaotic head office days are over. I think I've managed to do reasonably well on the food / cals front. NFD today and then normal Friday FD tomorrow. Haven't weighed since Tuesday am after first FD so no idea if I've done any damage in these couple of days but I think I should be ok - fingers crossed.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/09/2019 13:53

Good luck on your FD today, onko, bloggers

Sorry to hear about your nasty cold, bwydda 💐
Stay in bed / on the sofa if you can
and above all, drink lots of water, to stay hydrated.
Hot soup is gentle & soothing if you can manage to heat a can / carton.

Congratulations on your SV and less bloat NSV, Skye

Yes, if you've been around 650 the last couple of days, I'd count that as your FDs for the week and continue with sensible NFDs
If you find a calorie limit gives structure, then aIm to be withing TDEE

Great courgette, filly and well done on your FD
2lb may be a blip - or the previous reading was - so have a sensible couple of NFDs and see what the scales say Saturday am

Relax and enjoy, MrD

OP posts:
Skyejuly · 12/09/2019 16:27

Thank you :-)

How has everyone gone today?

I've got a huge headache so making a big quorn chili and hoping that some bulky food will sort me out. Might go over the limit but not much as made it as low cal as poss x

BigChocFrenzy · 12/09/2019 17:02

Skye For a headache, I suggest a level teasp of marmite, neat from the jar, to replenish any lost salt and minerals while you are adapting to fasting

Relax and don't try to make today a low cal day; it's not sustainable - so eat your full TDEE
Just avoid sugary crap or large carb portions - stay sensible on portion size - so it doesn't start off cravings

OP posts:
Laniakea · 12/09/2019 19:26

FD - just finished a cup of tea & I'm off to summon up the energy to have a bath.

I've had a bit of a crappy week, just feeling bleurgh & a bit overwhelmed. I've got a lot of loose skin (four c sections) & my tits are a disaster after 10 years of breastfeeding & I've really fucked my hips - waiting for x-ray referral - so can't exercise at all atm ... it's having a terrible effect on my mood Sad Before the summer I remember saying that I felt like my brain hadn't caught up with my body & I still feel that a bit ... I think I've lost a little over 5 stones this year now.

DH & DD1 both start new jobs next week, ds1 has a lot of medical issues, I'm pulling my hair out about Brexit & already worrying about Christmas .... argh.

NSV didn't even cheer me up much. I got all my winter boots out today & they fit. Including two pairs of LK Bennet's which I haven't been able to wear for 15 years & a pair of Boden calf length boots that I have never worn ... I bought them 12 years ago. Actually that is pretty good.

I'm cold all the time (& obviously complain a lot!) ... dh must be fed up of it because he went out and bought me three pairs of thermal tights last night Grin

onko · 12/09/2019 20:54

Well done on your FD and MASSIVE congratulations on your success Lania - 5st is amazing and I’m so impressed you are still going. I’m sorry you’re feeling a bit rubbish but hope you’ll wake up in the morning with your mojo back. Lots of the stuff you mention will blow over soon and you have lovely ‘new’boots to wear - maybe cheer yourself up with a new coat or two?

Hope your cold is better soon bwydda

Kitchen closed on about 470 most of which came from lovely sweet overripe yellow tomatoes from the garden (I’m a human composter sometimes). Not looking forward to my morning shred but will be dreaming about my breakfast.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/09/2019 21:33

Fantastic SV, lania 5 stone this year is a great achievement
and well done too on a great winter boots NSV; lovely to wear all your favourites from 12 or 15 years ago

It's a bummer not being able to exercise.
Are gentle walks outside painful ? - that can help lift your mood. Or just sit outside in the sun and relax
And get plenty of sleep

Try to look at your fab achievements
and realise what a strong woman you are, how much you have accomplished

Well done on your FD, Lania, Onko

Those yellow tomatoes are making my mouth water, onko
Do you grow other veg too ?
We seem to have quite a few talented 5:2 gardeners atm

OP posts:
BloggersBlog · 12/09/2019 21:46

Lamia wow 5 stone this year?! Amazing! Do you count calories on NFDs or just eat sensibly?