5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Wow Lania, that’s amazing! Enjoy the boots - you earned them

Weird food day here: couldn’t decide whether to fast after 2 FDs and a mini FD in a row. Had a couple of steamed eggs with a bit of feta for breakfast at work, so thought I might not be, but then didn’t eat anything else at all for the whole day. Did my boxing class (no cramps - yay!) and was pondering a sub 300 supper when dh suggested fish and chips. I didn’t eat the batter, just the fish, and only half a portion of chips, along with 2 squares of dark chocolate and a small whiskey (first alcohol all week!) so am hoping to have come out under or even with TDEE, but perhaps some fasting benefits. Definitely noticing a reduced desire to snack, even when stuff is available, and the high protein start to my morning carried me through a really active and intense day without any hunger pangs until dinner at 9.30pm.

Good luck to the Friday fasters. Well done Mr D on surviving the two hectic office days, and hope you feel better soon Bwydda. Onko, I massively recommend the butternut squash & chickpea tagine that BCF shared (on the bbc good food links): it’s super tasty and freezes really well too, so you can stock up and pull it out when you need it. I’m quite enjoying experimenting with new FD recipes - I absolutely love cooking but used to only do ready meal type things or soup for FDs. Funnily, dh is enjoying them too....I always cook quite healthy food anyway, but he’s surprisingly keen on most of the sub 500 meals (just has to bulk them up with extra carbs!). Almost wish he wasn’t as it leaves me less to freeze for next time . Iceni - my berbere spice arrives tomorrow

Oops. Hit post too soon.

BCF - hows things with you?

Morning all

Checking in for my Friday FD. Cooking beef casserole for tonight and will have some soup at lunchtime if I need it.

Lania - sorry to hear you are feeling a bit down. You have done incredibly well this year 5 stone down is amazing, unfortunately that can bring loose skin with it that takes a little while to catch up. I may well be in the same boat when I hit that milestone. Try and focus on the health benefits which must be massive carrying around that much less weight! I also massage birch oil into the areas that I'm expecting to be saggy... can't promise that it helps but it definitely smells good

Good luck MrD and any other Friday fasters

MrD I recommended the birch oil tip because reports are that it really helps keep the skin supple, hence may help it to shrink
btw, one advantage of losing at a reasonable pace: your skin has a chance to keep up

That's a healthy habit NSV filly with reduced desire for snacks
If you can cut them out for a full month, that is often enough to form a new habit

Yep, if you have breakfast, I recommend high protein then, to avoid mid-morning cravings for junk
Glad you enjoy the tagine - it's a perennial 5:2 FD favourite

"couldn’t decide whether to fast after 2 FDs and a mini FD in a row."
Unless you are on Fast800, that is plenty for a whole week

No need to deprive yourself if you are sharing a weekly fish & chips treat with OH; just stick to 1 small drink as you did - btw I recommend adding a side of mushy peas or other unbattered veg,

I've been out cycling, now off to the gym to lift weights

Enjoy your workout Big Choc!

Your fast day food dounds lovely MrD - actually lots of lovely nutritious sounding meals from everyone.

Lania are you feeling any better today last time I lost weight there was phase where I was unhappy with my body but then when I lost a bit more it improved somehow so it is possible things will tighten up if that's the right word! I had about 5 years of bf it does take a while but things do seem to improve.

My plan was 800 cal fast and 1600, 3 meals no snacks, however I only managed the 800 fast bit - I had lost a decent chunk the next day (tue am) but it has crept up which is totally expected but still at a loss 3 days later. I think because I am going more towards 1800 on NFD and also because I cant exercise as much as I want due to plantar fasciitis I will do another 800 cal fast today. I do still have a lot of work on stopping grazing though. As a positive though I haven't been snacking after dinner.

sorry, I had 5 years of bfing but spread out over 8 years.

That's an NSV, stopping the late snacks, yumyum
Changing habits takes time, but you are making good progress there

Sounds like your weight trend over the weeks is downwards, so you can pick your own pace, as you find what is sustainable longterm for you

Your plantar fascitis is a bummer - did your GP suggest exercises or anything to help this ?

To keep up some fitness, I recommend upper body resistance training, where you are sitting, or lying down on the floor / bench
(I can suggest some exercises if you want more ideas)

Thanks Big choc! This is embarrassing but I haven't actually been to the GP for a diagnosis - bit naughty I should have gone today as I had time it's been going on for a couple of months and classic symptom of sore when I first get out of bed so I limp around but it eases off quickly within a couple of minutes, it also hurts if I have been cooped up in car's buses etc and periodically during day like if I am standing up doing kitchen stuff in the evening. When I realised what it was after people recognised they symptoms I bought some new shoes, rolled ice bottles under my foot, massage my foot etc and it wasn't gone but not too bad. It went up to a whole new level of sore this week though after trying to get back to my old cardio weights workouts. I was literally limping round work. I have had a few days resting and now it is just back to a bit uncomfortable.

I was planning to try yoga dvds, and use dh's elliptical trainer and I will also add in seated weights thank you! Any tips would be great for exercises.

yumyum Do see your GP

• that plantar fascitis may needs some treatment / monitoring as it's been continuig so long

Suggested exercise for upper body & abs

I suggest you start with say 15 mins on each of 2-3 days per week, then if you wish to build strength, gradually increase this to 45 mins

For each exercise, start with 1-2 sets, each 8-15 reps (repetitions)
You can build up to 3-4 sets if you wish, as you get stronger - or just do more different kinds of exercise

Rest between sets.

Choose a weight - barbell / dumbbell / small plastic bottle of water -
which is just light enough for you to do one set without rests between reps.
You may wish to vary weight depending on the exercise

Each day, try a different combination of exercises, and number of reps / sets.

Sitting:
front (deltoid) raise
side (deltoid) raise
tricep curls
biceps curls
reverse biceps.

On a bench:
bench press wide
bench press narrow
tricep press
pullover.

Core (abs, lower back):
. Situps with hands forward
. Angled situp with elbow to opposite knee
. Plank
. Leg raises
(Lie flat on your back, with legs bent to 90 degrees. Lower your legs one at a time to 1" above the floor, straightening your leg, then raise again)

Brilliant bigchoc thank you so much, I am going to def try those suggestions

I'd see a podiatrist for that foot pain. I managed to cure plantar fascitis with gel heel lifts in my shoes. But I was lucky.

It can be affected by flat feet, which I have. And I have tight Achilles etc as a result, so I get pain there too. Sadly I now have osteoarthritis in my toes which is less easily managed. The only exercise I enjoy is walking, did eleven miles today. Won't be able to do it once my toes get worse.

Kitchen closed on around 400 today and feeling good. Not shredded for a couple of days as haven't had time, going to do some of the exercises tonight and plan to get back into it properly at the weekend I think

hope everyone else has had a good FD

Well done on your FD, MrD
Friday Shred sounds a good idea, to shred off a busy week

That's excellent walking, VanGogh
I live right on the Rhine path - deliberately to encourage daily walks
That's a shame about your toes; walking helps the brain's "executive functions" and is also beneficial psychologically

To prepare for the future, can you develop a fondness for cycling, or using a stationary bike ?
At home, or spinning class if you belong to a gym - I find that pedalling away to music relieves stress and can be HIIT

My weekly spin is tomorrow afternoon

wow 11 miles is excellent well done VanGogh - actually I have had something like shin splints a couple of times when I tried running (got better by itself).

My planned fast went slightly side ways, I prefer to skip dinner if fasting but I wanted to join dp who suddenly felt like having G&T so I decided to postpone fast till sat or sun and have a light dinner to balance out the gin - but then some stuff came up with dc and I didn't end up having the drink anyway! At least it was a low day.

Well done on your fast day mrDarcy.

Spinning - that must surely release lots of good endorphins BigChoc. I tried a class once and lets just say I should have started with a beginners class - it was crazy

Good luck weekend fasters!

Morning all

bit miffed at weigh in today. Showing as 14st 6.4lb - which is a loss of just 0.2lb this week. I know its been a busy one and I've eaten a little more carby than usual but I have definitely been on or around GOAL TDEE plus the two FDs... ho hum - the joys of having been overweight for a long time I guess... body must be trying to hang on to it... grrr

Onwards and downwards I go .... fasting Tuesday and Thursday like normal next week.

Morning all
I'm fasting today. Anyone else ?

Another gorgeous sunny day , so I'll really enjoy my walk along the Rhine shortly
Spin class this afternoon
No weights today - I had a heavy weights session yesterday and will do strength & felxibility class tomorrow morning

Stay chilled, MrD and de-miff
Maybe take out some frustration with Shred ?

You are right that your body sometimes resists going lower for a while, especially if you are at a previous set point
On a long weight loss journey, noone loses every week

Look at what you have achieved so far; the scales will start moving more quickly once your body is ready to move on

yumyum I'd always recommend, when considering a gym class, to check that it is also suitable for beginners

• it's fine to ask Also,if its inclusive, don't feel embarassed if it takes a couple of months before you are pedalling as furiously as the rest. Everyone has to build up fitness over time for more vigorous exercise

My spin class has a lovely friendly trainer who accepts everyone as they are.
The class includes the whole range of fitness levels, but we each choose the resistance that suits us, sit down if need be, even pedalling slowly to recover while others are sprinting

I'm not fasting today, thankfully as I'm in agony! Did my first body pump class Thursday and am sooo stiff today. Hats off to all the weight lifters- it's hard.

Does anyone do 4:3 and find it speeds up weight loss by much or is it really hard to sustain?

bloggers Over the years, many people on these threads have done 4:3
Results are very individual:

Where it works very well
and speeds up loss is as a short burst of up to a couple of months - for those who have NFDs well under control
and who find FDs reasonably easy
If losing for an important event, some folk use this as "bootcamp" and also cut out booze & all junk for the duration

It is also a good tool for plateau-breaking when used for 2-3 weeks

• unless someone has urgent need to lose weight quickly, then I recommend reserving it for stubborn plateaus

Where it doesn't
is for those who can't control NFDs and / or find FDs a strain
They often unconsciously or otherwise allow themselves on eat more on NFDs, so overall the loss is no quicker than on 5:2

Also, they haven't addressed longterm eating habits, so struggle to keep the weight off afterwards

Anyone who struggles not to binge:
then 4:3 is not for you, because it can worsen this

bwydda A gentle walk can help ease muscles and an early night too, to let them repair

Hi Mr D, I have read many stories from people shredding and seeing zero weight loss despite controlled eating - particularly those who were non-regular exercisers. Of course muscle weighs more than fat but I also know that proper muscle gain takes weeks. However given the amount of anecdotal evidence out there I have (entirely unscientifiy) concluded that for people with little muscle to start with, the initial muscle gain when starting an exercise regime is significant in slowing weight loss.

Or I could be talking complete bollocks . BCF as a scientist, what do you think?

Thanks for the pep talk BigChoc - officially demiffed. Had a productive morning doing jobs that have been bugging me at home instead!

Onko, I can see how your theory might work however in my case I have a long history in martial arts (until the youngest was born and it became impossible anyway).... there is plenty of muscle there just unused for some time- no idea if 'waking it up again' could have had an impact... we shall see what the next few weeks bring. I'm suspecting another attempt at a plateau , but I shall battle onwards and maybe throw in a 4:3 couple of weeks in October if needed

Not really, onko
Exercise is v important for health & fitness, but usually doesn't lead to a lot of weight loss, unless you exercise very intensively for several hours per week

It requires a lot of exercise to burn even the equivalent of a normal meal

At MrD's weight, Shred would burn about 300 calories, which is a handy boost, but it would take about 25 sessions to burn 1kg extra

Intermittent Fasting is known to increase muscle in some people, without them increasing exercise
5:2 will at least will maintain muscle, while losing body fat (providing you don't go into water-only FD or other extremes)

It is one of the benefits compared to standard daily calorie-reduction diets, where over 25% of the weight lost may be muscle

It's the main reason people report often being "smaller" at particular weight than they have been in the past

Someone came on here a few years ago saying their doctor had told them to stop their CR-diet, because although they had lost a stone, it was almost all muscle,
which the doc said at their current low level of muscle, was dangerous for their health

Thanks for that info BigChocFrenzy

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🎺🎺 bWe have a NEW 5:2 / IF Thread #87 🎺🎺

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