5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Filly well done on the changes to your shape. It’s frustrating not to get the proof on the scales but toning up arms is a brilliant NSV and I am jealous as there may have been some strategic cropping of some of my recent holiday pics to make my arms less huge 🙈

Aber my journey would look similar - well done on new downward trend. I feel like my head is getting to right place too so fingers crossed.

Not snacking is so hard 😳 but I can see it’s what I need to work on the most.

Well done all!

So today was a NFD but I still try and be healthy. I had a macdonalds I tried to be good with a wrap but still had chips. I'm still under calories but only just. Figure I cant resist all temptation or I give up so making good choices is my best bet for now.

Does anyone do 2 FDs together even though the advice is not to? My working days are Thurs/Fri and am so busy I dont think about food until about 4! But I dont want to sabotage it if it is important to have a NFD inbetween FDs

Blogger- I do back to back, but have been advised to increase to 650 cals per day. It works for me

Ah ok thanks bwydda

bloggers That's certainly not the advice on these threads: b2b is fine

b2b (=back to back FDs) was the original 5:2 developed by Dr Michelle Harvie that Mosely adapted
He decided that allowing non-consecutive days made it fit better into ordinary life, but he certainly didn't say not to

Harvie's research and human trials (funded by UK cancer charities) had 650 cals per FD,
which is why I say 650 for b2b
because b2b is more difficult

You can also have FD1 at 500 and FD2 800, to give the same 1300 cals for the 2 days
That's handy, if you only decide after FD1 that you want a b2b
That split over the days, with FD2 having more cals, works because you start FD2 already fasted

aber Cutting out snacking & grazing - every day - is the key to resisting office junk

If you allow snacking on other days, you aren't breaking the habit and temptation
Eat meals, nothing between

Even "healthy" snacks like fruit or nuts keep insulin raised between meals, which increases hunger and also hinders fat-burning

BigChocFrenzy thank you, that is really helpful. Will suit my lifestyle better to do b2b and 650 makes it much easier

Morning all, checking in for a Monday fast and possibly b2b. Soup all round I think as the weather is miserable here!

There is an interesting article in today's Times about various forms of intermittent fasting, and how effective it is for health and weight loss:

"If the modern fast has become ubiquitous it is because its positive effects far exceed weight loss (and the health benefits of shedding excess weight per se). Studies — albeit in animals — suggest that fasting can improve cognitive function and metabolic health, slow the onset of Alzheimer’s and reverse type 2 diabetes. Dr Michael Mosley brought IF to our attention in 2012 by illustrating its ability to increase insulin sensitivity in his BBC Horizon documentary Eat, Fast and Live Longer.

"“I’d just discovered I was a type 2 diabetic like my dad,” he says. He was 57. “My dad had died of complications of diabetes at 74.” He wanted to investigate whether he could get rid of the diabetes without medication. He could. “I lost 9kg. Blood sugars went back to normal. Stayed there ever since.”

"His “fast diet” (the 5:2) swiftly emerged, becoming a phenomenon, and while it was the first introduction to IF for many, it drew on several years of research, primarily that of Dr Michelle Harvie, a research dietitian at the prevent breast cancer research unit in Manchester, and Dr Mark Mattson, professor of neuroscience at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine.

"In the 1990s Mattson found that the only way to slow the ageing process (which increases the risk of disorders such as Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s and stroke) in animal studies was to reduce their energy intake. What was making their brain cells resistant to degeneration and dysfunction?

"Mattson says: “Bottom line, we found that intermittent fasting enhances the resistance of the nerve cells to a variety of types of stress that we think are occurring in all of these disorders: oxidative stress, that is free radicals; metabolic stress, that is cells not getting enough energy.’

"He followed this discovery with collaborative studies that demonstrated the potential of fasting in humans. In 2007 he investigated the impact of putting asthma patients on 600 calories every other day (ADCR — alternative day calorie restriction). Mattson says: “Over two months it greatly improved their symptoms and reduced inflammation.”

"He worked with Harvie, who discovered that weight loss can reduce the risk of breast cancer by 25 per cent to 40 per cent and has developed and tested intermittent fasting diets for weight loss and breast cancer prevention since 2006. The 5:2 was inspired by her research, and in 2013 she published The 2-Day Diet, the proceeds of which go to cancer research.

"Meanwhile, Valter Longo, professor in gerontology and biological science at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles and the director of its Longevity Institute, discovered in 2008 that fasting for two days protected healthy cells against the toxicity of chemotherapy. In 2017 Cell Metabolism published his study in which ageing mice placed on cycles of a four-day low-calorie diet had reduced visceral belly fat. Stem cell numbers increased in several organs, including the brain, and memory and neural regeneration were boosted."

Then goes on to discuss various types of fast etc.

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/times2/fasting-diets-why-do-so-many-people-love-them-because-they-work-darling-tvkbdlhn5

Morning Hummus - I’m checking in too, and just spotted the same article in T2! Not sure about a b2b but still stuck on 10.08 so might consider it.
Let’s see how today goes

Morning all. A fast day for me. It's going to be hard for me to shift weight as most gain was due to sertraline

Morning, checking in for fd b2b.

Thanks for the article hummus- really interesting reading. This is week 3 for me and I really notice other benefits beside weight loss. I am sure that I'm more "awake" generally and my energy levels are so much higher.

Morning all

Checking in for a Monday FD here too - got a big couple of days with work so won't be fasting tomorrow as usual.

Was tired this weekend so didn't shred but will be back to it today.

I also have a junk NSV to share. Was knackered and hadn't eaten. Started looking through dominos / just eat etc (old habits die hard).... spent a good 20 mins nosing as couldn't decide. Didn't want anything. In the end I cooked myself something at home - not the healthiest of meals (part bake baguette with chicken and some fries) but probably 1000 + less cals than it could have been. Massive win here!

Got leftover chilli for FD meal today and am in the zone with my water.

Good job on the meal. I do find myself making healthier choices. I only had 4 match makers yest instead of the whole box and generally not snacking between meals like I used too.

I've done a week and the scales still stay the same for me :(

Hi all, checking in for a FD - lots of us today
Not a great weekend (cricket then my daughters birthday party) but it was anticipated and I prepared by having a mini on Friday. Shredded this morning - I’m finding L3 just as difficult as L2 as there’s cardio in the strength sections and strength in the cardio. But I’m feeling marginally fitter every time I do it so it’s doing it’s job; such a clever workout. You must be levelling up soon Mr D?

Good luck to everyone

Onko - gave myself the weekend off as was knackered - will be moving to level 2 this week at some point depending on how I'm feeling!

Skye - worth having a think about how you've been this week... due on or anything like that? Have you drunk enough water? Have you snacked or had high sugar meals? Don't worry, let it go but have a think and see if there is anything to tweak this week

I have had snacks but I've been very limited and under 1000 calories all week. Ugh x

Skye I was on the bsd thread for a long time and on there people do 800 Cals a day for 8 weeks. It was a common theme for people to have a week where they stayed the same - no idea why - then weight loss would pick up again. Seems crazy to be under 1000 a day for a week and not lose but sometimes the scales don’t tell the whole story - there were some theories why it might happen but basically it seems to be a common phenomenon 🤪

Fasting today too here!

Wow, a busy Monday for fasters

Good luck on your FDs, hummus, filly, skye, bwydda, MrD, onko

Thanks for the article, Hummus
A useful summary of research into IF

Dr Johnson pioneered Alternate Day Fasting for his asthma patients and published papers, several years before IF became so mainstream

Skye Don't stick with "Ugh", because that is miserable for you and rarely sustainable
(unless you only have a tiny bit to lose)

Why are you restricting yourself to 1000 calories ?
Also if you have snacks too, that reduces meal size

I recommend you do proper 5:2, which is much more sustainable longterm
So just 2 x FDs and the 5 NFDs
You also need to use NFDs to retrain longterm eating habits

• otherwise, after all your hard work losing, you'll just regain

If you find it helpful to count NFD calories, then aim for TDEE and use Mosely's TDEE Calc
(He says that exercisers calculate with one activity level lower than they think)

TDEE would allow satisfying meals, so you don't need to snack between - it's just habit and / or boredom

If you want treats like a few matchmakers, that's fine BUT have them as part of a meal, as your pud

The BSD / Fast800 must be low carb

i.e. Every day, NO sweets, choc, crisps etc whatsoever
Also no starchy carbs or alcohol

Mosely specifies these requirements as essential to his 800 VLCD

800-1000 calories which include any sugary crap won't bring the same weight loss
and probably won't contain enough nutrients if you are doing it for weeks

Even healthy starchy carbs will slow down loss

That's why most people find ordinary 5:2 much more doable,
even if the loss is slower than BSD

Thank you!

I'm just new and finding my feet. I definitely feel less bloated and I guess it's not just about weight loss xx

Gosh, I’m finding today’s fast tough going. Probably the change in the weather isn’t helping but unusually I’m starving and distracted, in the middle of a crazy busy work day. Very annoying as I don’t have time to sort out low cal lunch option on the fly - normally I don’t even notice missing lunch when busy! In desperation, I’ve just had two rice cakes & 2 teaspoons marmite, along with lots of black coffee and water and am just going to have to push on through. Suddenly that snack table looks super inviting (despite poo crumbs )...

Hang in there. I'm struggling too. Desperate for dinner time!

Hang in there Filly, it's the cold! I'm bloody freezing too and just trying to motivate myself to shred brrrr