5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Hello everyone sorry been quiet for a couple of days. I was delighted to see 9-11 on the scales on Friday but after a non FD (home made sweet potato&lentil soup, and a very thin crust vegan pizza meant tipped me out of FD) on Friday and FD yesterday it’s back up to 9-13. Still I’m staying below 10 which is good. I am not sure as a vegan how much I’m managing ketosis /low carb but I certainly find the food I’m eating on FDs makes it easy to get through them. today won’t be a particularly low carb day but I can make it a TDEE I think - and healthy. just scuppered my chances of low-carbing it too by eating a big banana and there will be vegan rhubarb crumble later!

Hi all, signing in for a Sunday FD. We are off on holiday on Wednesday so into the last innings now.

Good luck Essentialhummus

Big choc - with the 3 mini fast days how much would you expect to loose per week? As I'm loosing 1pound per week with 2 500 fast days do you think it might be the same?

My non fd Cals would be 1700 if that makes a difference.

That might be a more manageable way for me to fast.

Also on the tdee calculator I put myself as lightly active as I saw on one of the threads that it said go a level below where you think you are.

On a Normal week I teach 4 fitness classes and usually train myself 1-2 times per week and I put myself as lightly active do you think that's correct or should I go up to moderately active?

I've had a lovely sunny day by the Rhine with friends
No training, but we did 12 km walking

miffy Unless you are doing Fast800 and / or react sharply to starchy carbs, there is absolutely no need to low carb
Just be sensible about sweet treats on NFDs and avoid all sweet junk on FDs

Vegas can do very well on 5:2 - one of our earliest 5:2ers wa breadandwine, a vegan who was then in his late 70s.
He reached his ideal weight and has easily mantained for years.
Many other vegans have had success too

seriously The 3 miniFD system gives about the same rate of loss as 5:2 with 2 x 500 FDs

• both the theoretical calorie calculation and from several people who have done this Many folk find it easier I must patent this fasting system ! 😂

Good luck, hummus

oh and I recommend you set "moderately active" if you like to count NFD calories

Morning all, signing in for a b2b.

Weighed myself this morning and am down 1.3kg / 2.8lbs - finally, after a 4 week plateau! I moved the scales all over the bathroom to double and triple check. So now just 300g off target at 70.3. Hoping that today does it.

Anyone else fasting today?

Congratulations on your SV, Hummus
You are so near to goal that I wouldn't even call it a plateau - the last few lb can take months for some folk
Don't worry if the last 300g take a couple of weeks to be gone reliably, i.e. after 5 NFDs

Good luck on your b2b

the last few lb can take months for some folk

That's useful to know bigchoc, thank you.

Some folk find they can easily go beyond their original target
It's very individual

43 I used to kid myself that the extra dark Lindt balls were actually “healthy”, because of the fact that it was dark chocolate, haha. I haven’t managed to fully shake my choc addiction, but it’s mostly reined in to a few squares of good quality 70% dark choc, most days.

Fab work on recent SVs Surprised, Clutter, seriously, Miffy and Essential. Congrats on breaking through the plateau, Essential - so satisfying! Good luck for getting down to 70 tomorrow!

I managed to lose pretty efficiently on 800 FDs, ernie, without even doing the 2 weeks of solely 800 cals. You might surprise yourself on your carb reliance once you get into the swing of the FDs. I was a big bread eater, and adore(d) crackers (with lashings of butter and cheese), but actually find I don’t miss carbs, and definitely not pasta, rice, etc, and just occasionally have nice bread when I buy it.

Well done on your first FD pineapple.

Scales are holding steady in spite of a rather indulgent Mother's Day, with filled brioche for breakfast and lunch out. I’ve done my usual Mon FD (NZ time zone!) and kitchen now closed after a somewhat relaxed FD total of 700 cals. That suits me okay. I find that most of my extra cals above 500 are through milky tea, but I would struggle to give that up, to be honest, and it really makes it so easy as I know I can have a tea to tide me over. I am probably not making the most of the autophagy or ketosis, but with 12:12 it seems to be working okay.

Good luck all other Monday fasters!

Sneaking in the back door...3lbs above "happy weight".

NFD today after a Mini yesterday and FD Friday. Need to get my arse back in the game.

Oh, just for full disclosure, that's 3lb over the absolute top point of "happy weight range"...I'm about half stone up on last summer when I was comfortably at the lower end of the happy range

Hi - checking in for a FD here too. Congrats everyone for their SVs and good luck to pineapple! Nice work on the maintenance fiddle - its great to see how you are getting on...

I have been struggling a bit to maintain losses...seems like whenever my weight goes down after FDs it goes up again after a few NFDs. Could be just that it's around TOTM. I recently got a mirena IUD, and my periods are so incredibly light now, that I am not sure exactly when they start/stop.... Still about 1 kg to my goal weight. Perhaps its just taking a while, which you point out is normal BigChoc

Just tea and black coffee today so far. I'll have an omelette for lunch and maybe tuna salad for dinner. I live in a developing country and we are very limited in terms of what kinds of food we get here. No fish for a start which I really miss! No ready meals, or cottage cheese, or certain kinds of veges like cauliflower and broccoli which are my usual mainstays of healthy eating... I'm having to get creative which is probably a good thing!

I might try a B2B this week. The allowance is 650 each day, right? Any tips/favourite things to eat on B2B fasting from those who use this approach?

Good luck everyone!!

Morning all and well done on any successful FDs and SVs.

I'm not fasting today- DS has helpfully shared his cold with me so I'm feeling sorry for myself! Started feeling a bit grotty yesterday so didn't do my usual 6.30 spin class, just walked back from school run instead and got a giant Eccles cake to have with a can of Coke (don't drink it that often but really crave it when I've got a sore scratchy throat). Will eat healthily the rest of the day and attempt a FD tomorrow instead.

Had a busy day yesterday gardening- managed over 20,000 steps and my Fitbit doesn't even count the steps when you're pushing the mower (it thinks I did a bike ride!). My garden is really hilly so mowing is an excellent work out!

Hello lovely wonderful . Nice to catch up via the thread! BigChoc will have some advice I'm sure, but it does sound like it's the combo of those factors (TOTM, close to goal weight, etc) that is contributing to the slight yo-yo-ing.

I know you (like me) don't particularly like counting cals, but I do sometimes find it useful every now and again to MyFitnessPal everything I eat on a NFD, just to check that I'm not rocketing above TDEE on certain things. (I have done this in the past by severely underestimating cals in things like butter, salad dressing or mayo.) BigChoc's saying about using the NFDs as "training days" has really stuck with me - ie to practice keeping to a sense of what your everyday cal requirement are. Yes, must add a whole different dimension when you don't have access to "easy" FD foods. Can you get canned fish? That and eggs are my go-tos for FDs at the moment...

Anyway, as you were!

Hi fiddle!
Yes, I can get canned fish and eggs and this is what I eat a lot of plus lots of other veggies. Its not too bad, just gets boring and I find it de-motivating eating the same stuff. Its a really good idea to count calories on my NFDs a bit. To be honest I am still not fully complying to the no snack rule on these days...its a hard habit to break!

Morning all!
Well done everyone over the weekend - crazy busy one for me. Pretty good food wise - with the exception of a massive roast dinner yesterday! Did stick mainly to the veg though rather than piling up the potatoes.

Checking in for a fast day today. Am at the start of a cold so feeling rather sorry for myself 😩

Weigh in day for me tomorrow... am gonna use that as inspiration to smash it today.

Good luck, Monday fasters, not long to go
Lovely weather atm and another 10 km walk along the Rhine, plus body styling at the gym and then lifting weights

Well done on your FD, fiddle
You've developed a system that works for you and is sustainable, so that's fine

Welcome back, bug
You've done well to return while you still haven't much to haul back
Concentrate on the 5:2 healthy habits, especially the No Snacking & NHS alcohol limits, then you'll soon be moving towards Happy Weight Range

I hope you soon feel better, earslaps, millenium

• and that you didn't catch each others germs

Don't fast with a fever, or if you feel too unwell.
Just keep drinking water and try to support your immune system with nutritious food, no junk or alcohol.

wonderful Most people find their weight curve on 5:2 is a zig-zag function, with the FDs & NFDs, but trending downwards.

As you are so near goal, it may take a few weeks to lose the last kg and keep it off for 2 weeks, which is the definition of being reliably at goal.

Your irregular totm could also be making things more difficult.

That's tough, being in a country with such limited types of food, can be boring & frustrating, so you are doing well.
Can you find different recipes to combine the ingredients you have ?
Maybe someone creative can suggest a recipe

Just stay focused and keep good habits on the NFDs - especially no snacks - it makes a difference.
Snacking keeps your insulin raised and insulin switches your body from fat-burning to fat storage

I also suggest you mfp for a week, just to check that calories haven't crept up too much above TDEE, with the limited food choices available.

You could try a b2b, to shake up the routine, if you like
You have 650 cals per day for that.
Some prefer to have 500 cals on FD1, then 800 on FD2 - the higher cals are because you start FD2 already fasted

fiddle You might also like 85% or 90% cocoa choc
Lindt Mild Excellence has a very chocolatey flavour for these and is satisfying without being too moreish

Thanks BCF I've still been fasting (ish), it's just the NFDs that have been getting out of control. Sometimes a "screw it" day becomes a "screw it" week...and I admit to being cocky since I still look/ed slim. Trying on new swimsuits for holidays has pulled back my attention.

Don't worry, bug You know you can do this
I suggest going back to first principles and for 1 week log everything you eat or drink

You don't even have to mfp if you dislike that - just write it down and that often shows where the extra cals are and where your triggers are
It's often helpful just to mfp the "treats", including alcohol & lattes

You may need to rebuild healthy habits
e.g. no snacks, reduce amount / frequency of treats, increase water, veg, beans / lentils, / peas

or the issue may be portion sizes for meals

Seeing everyone’s sv’s And nsv’s is so inspiring! I’ve been for a C25K w3 walk/jog and am necking some additional water now. Trying to work out when I’m going to fit in my FDs this week- it’s a busy one, with my DS’s 4th bday and party over the weekend, plus a late work meeting/ social. I have lunch with the girls weds but I can make that a low cal meal and maybe have that as my FD. I felt a little bit different round my middle today, but accept that may be purely psychological 😬
I’d also be interested to hear people’s lazy lunch solutions. I’ve been pretty good prepping so far but eventually I will forget and that’s usually my downfall 🙄

Evening all!
Finished fd today at 480 ish I think.
Got home really late and cba to cook - so ate what was left of yesterday's roast chicken 😂 all of the good bits had gone so there wasn't much left.
Definitely no mythical everlasting mumsnet chicken here!

Weighin day tomorrow. Also am going to re-measure....

Hope you're feeling better earflaps today was HARD! I just wanted to eat marmite on toast 😩

Well done on the walking and the water, Daphne
That's 2 healthy habits you are developing

Recipe suggestions (from the OP):

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals , Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Fast Food: Mirror