5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Well done on a choc-free FD, 43
Good tactics to lock them up in the office !

Thanks mrd and bcf.... off for an early night, dh just made a cuppa and has 5 choc biscuits to dunk in, rude huh

LTB !

Well done on the FDs OhMrD, 43, Blodyn and others. Particularly impressive Lindt choc ball resistance, 43. Those things are EVIL. I think they were almost entirely responsible for my BFing weightgain.

I'm skipping breakfast this morning, after a bit of indulgent wine and snackage last night. Also want to bank some cals as it's mother's day here on Sunday and I imagine there will be some cake involved at some point. So, may try to make this a mini-FD. Hope everyone has a lovely weekend!

Saturday morning here and I’m having coffee and toast in bed, ignoring the dishes and washing etc. DH is out running

I weighed myself yesterday after FD2 and am 64.6, so down 500g and close to goal weight. Thursday wasn’t my best FD, there was drama at work so after my 2 boiled eggs I had a couple of takeaway coffees (both skim milk) during the day which didn’t leave me much at the end of the day. I ended up having my usual brown rice/protein/broccoli combo but with hardly any chicken.

We went round to dinner with colleagues last night and I feel sluggish this am. I’m not a big dessert eater but it had been made by one of the attendees and served for us and it would have been a bit rude not to eat it but heavy puddings aren’t really my thing. We have a BBQ tonight with a few other families but there’s a zillion kids and no one will be slaving over special desserts. I like baking and I’m contemplating making something myself to take but realistically the kids will be happier with an ice cream in a cone.

Good luck to all the Friday fasters; everyone is doing so well.

Morning all

Congratulations on the SV surprised, exciting to be nearly at goal!

Fiddle sounds like a good plan, am sure you will settle into maintenance soon.

Weight this morning is 15st 4.2lb which is almost 1lb down this week and takes total weightloss to 2st 8.2lb

Ha ha bcf

Well done nolonger and mrd on your sv's fantastic

fiddle they really are, plus it was the mixed box so had extra dark ones which are my favourite. Enjoy your mother's day

nolonger' that does sound like a good plan. I love baking also but also like a receptive audience, and those kids just won't appreciate the effort you've put on

Not sure I'll bother weighing this morning as it'll probably be a sts again, might just wait until I'm back from hols at end of may and tackle the holiday gain....

Have a fab weekend everyone and good luck any fasters

Morning everyone

Rainy, so won't be having a Rhine walk today, just afternoon gym - heavy weights, then spin
Tomorrow forecast fine < crosses fingers as friends will be visiting for the day ... and we want to explore for miles >

I'm having an FD today
Good luck to us both, fiddle and enjoy Mothers Day tomorrow
Anyone else having a Saturday fast ?

Congratulation on your SV, surprised, MrD
You're losing well, so close to goal, surprised
and you've lost such a lot in total MrD; not long until you can pick your non-food reward for 3 stone

You did really well to resist that Lindt 43
I'm surprised they are still legal, must have some evil secret ingredient

If weighing is frustrating atm, you could just weigh the morning you leave

Holidays: before you go, write down the date of your 1st FD back
It helps you get back into routine on time, afterwards

Here goes my first fast day since I last did this about 6 years ago.
Thunderstorm here today which puts a dent in the exercise plans, but for the first couple of weeks at least I want to focus on the fasting on FD and not exercise too.
Not got a plan for food yet but lots of healthy food in the house and my husband under strict instructions to sort his own food out with no fussing.
Fingers crossed...

Morning!
Weigh in day for me today and I've lost 5lbs - however, I did donate blood yesterday so that probably accounts for half the loss
Debating whether to fast today or not. I've woken up really hungry but I'm much more likely to succeed at a weekend fast than a weekday.

Morning all...and good luck to all fasters today. I have a TDEE question - if I underestimate my cal intake for the day, or if I decide to relax it for a day or two over the weekend, but still stay well below my TDEE on those days AND fast for the other 5 days, I should still lose something, right? The scales has been rather stubborn this week and I thought it might be due go imminent totm - but got dates wrong and I'm not actually due yet! My scales is crap mind you and varies by up to half a stone each time you step on. So am actually not sure if I've lost or not but wondering if I should expect to? It's not really budged since Monday or Tuesday. (I weigh daily ask I find it motivating).

PS sorry about the typos.
PPS I know not all calories are the same, and I know that the key to Fast800 is autophagy/Katie is, but my question is whether a day or two of 12-1400 cals (with wine or starchy carbs) with a TDEE of about 1700 would ruin the last 5 days effort?

ketosis bloody autocorrect!!

That’s an impressive amount of weight lost, mrd

43 you’re right - ice cream was all they wanted

ernie when I’m hard core on the weight loss train such as after DC I’ve been massively strict about alcohol and sweets and everything. However, what I’ve liked about IF is that the mindset is such that a few not great days are quickly pulled back and not the beginning of a slide into crap eating. I’ve had a fairly social few nights and have been a bit drinky but in a way I’ve enjoyed them unreservedly knowing that there’re fast days coming up, if that makes any sense.

Congratulations on your SV, clutter
and well done for giving blood

Your 1 pint donation only weighs just over 1lb, so most of that losswas real

Good news: People burn approximately 650 calories per donation of one pint of blood, according to the University of California, San Diego.

Welcome, pineapple 🙂
and good luck on your 1st FD back on 5:2

ernie If your scales are so inaccurate, I'd bin them - they'll just do your head in
Can you afford a new set ?
Monitoring clothes fit is an alternative - try on the same jeans & blouse or whatever, once per week

On Fast800, even with 2 days over TDEE, you should be burning plenty of bodyfat - if you stick to the rules

However, if those 2 days always have alcohol and starchy carbs, you could be out of ketosis about 4 days in 7
i.e. you're not really doing a low carb diet or getting the benefits of it
Also, it would be very easy to add an extra few 1000 cals at the weekend, unless you mfp

It would work much better for weight loss if you just ignored calories at the weekend, but stuck to the food rules and had 1x750 ml glass wine on Sat+Sun

Your WOE sounds like you are basically dependent on calorie deficit to lose, with not much help from the low carb side
However, if you genuinely have a weekly deficit of 2000 cals, you should average 1 lb weekly
and with 5 x sub-1000 FDs you are probably getting more deficit than that, even with an indulgent weekend.

So, you should lose, but it could be quite a bit more slowly than on real Fast800

The difference between 5:2 and Fast800 is that 5:2 is far more tolerant, except for 2 strict days.
Fast800 - to work as intended by Mosely - means being strict every day

Thank you BCF. You're right of course about it not being low carb if I still have carbs. Old (Slimming World) habits die hard!! But just to clarify - I do count every calorie (using an app) and I haven't gone over my TDEE at all, not even close in spite of wine. But I know this is still not playing by the rules and therefore the results will not be the same. Just trying to find a balance and a WOL that works for me long term.

ernie Most people get a good loss on Fast800 in the initial 1-2 weeks on 800 cals per day
then the rate of further progress depends mostly on how closely they stick to Fast800 rules

Roughly estimating from what you have reported on FDs and for your TDEE of 1700:

5 x sub-1000 FDs gives a deficit of at least 3,500 cals

If you average within TDEE on NFDs, then you should theoretically average at least 0.5 kg weekly loss, over 1lb.

However, alcohol over NHS limits and junky carbs tend to slow down loss

• not so much slow burn ones like e.g. rye bread or brown rice, but specifically junky ones like crisps, pizza, biscuits, cake, sweets etc

Some people - usually the "hard losers" - find their loss is v sensitive to the type of calories,
whereas others can get away with more, provided they have a good weekly calorie deficit.

Sustainable WOE
Your problem seems to be sustaining low carb

• some people thrive on it, but many can't do it for more than a couple of weeks.

Sustainability imo means having a WOE you enjoy most of the week and if you don't like low carb then it sounds miserable

Fast800 is imo not v useful or nice for those who can't consistently low carb
I'm not sure that your version of Fast800 is giving you better results than if you did normal 5:2 or 4:3
i.e. 2-3 x 500 FDs and then NFDs within TDEE but not low carb

If 500 FDs are a problem, you could try 4:3 with 800 FDs - since your NFDs are around TDEE, you could lose well on that
and you might not feel so restricted in food choices

Yes, 800 cals is fine and I honestly have not been that hungry (less so than normal - no sugar peaks and troughs) but I'm a carb fiend and while I have been managing fine without them (mostly) I don't want to forego pasta, rice/risotto or crusty bread forever! I will look into 4:3 or 5:2.

Yep, you could have those every day - small portions on FDs of course

A good first day here. Even managed a bit of exercise- walk turned into run when the thunderstorm came back!
I'm loving all of your informative posts OP, thank you!

Hey everyone so I have been fasting for 4 weeks now and lost 4.6 lbs I would have liked more but I'm glad I have lost some :)

I know next week I have a lot on and I'm not sure I could manage 2 500 fd, if you have a week like that what do you do? I'm wondering if 2 800 cal days would mean I maintain?

I can see big choc mentioned 4:3 and 800 cals on those fast days, do you still loose weight like that? Do any of you do this instead of 2 500 cal days? I'm wondering if that might be better for me going forward as I really dread fast days and as I teach a fitness class in the evenings I sometimes worry about my energy levels on fd

Fast day today- saturdays are usually a bit of a mess food wise so I thought I could avoid by making saturdays my other fast day. This may need to flex from time to time but luckily due to small kids and a lack of readily available sitters we don’t go out that often 😂 I’m going to have a salad with some tuna in a minute as my meal and then just water for the rest of the day. My period arrived yday so will wait and see what that does to any potential weightloss when I weigh in on Tuesday 🤨

Well done on your 1s FD back, pineapple
I hope you've dried off now !
Rain here too, but tomorrow should be sunny all day; so Rhine walks planned with friends

Well done on your SV, seriously
You'd still lose on 2 x 800 FDs next week, a bit more slowly but that's ok

For those who find FDs tough, I recommend an alternate of WOE 3 x miniFDs,
i.e. sub-1000 but with the same no-junk no-alcohol rules as FDs
e.g. on Mon+Wed+Fri

I think that would suit you better

To speed up loss:

• remember we never eat back exercise calories on FDs
• allow for exercise only via TDEE - don't eat back what gadgets say, because they often lie !
• keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends: NHS alcohol limits, NEVER snack / graze between meals, sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal, lots of water & veg, cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks

Sounds a sensible FD meal plan, daphne
Saturday is a good FD choice, as it shortens the time for weekend sabotage

If scales can dishearten you, I suggest avoiding them until totm has finished
Most women retain water during their periods, which can - temporarily - add on 2-6 lb
Keep drinking water though, avoid the munchies and the FD after totm should finish releasing all the water