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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

968 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/05/2019 10:15

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
KnittingForMittens · 26/06/2019 19:46

Prepared meals for tomorrow fast day! I am also at work so will be actively on my feet for 7 hours.

Breakfast: nil. Cup of coffee with splash of milk

Lunch: 5:2 recipe mushroom stroganoff, a small amount of boiled rice and peas, an apple and pea snack

Dinner: chicken salad and 1sq dark chocolate

FatandSassy · 26/06/2019 20:20

How are you doing @Fillybuster ?

We've had a pretty good day eating wise. We had fruit salad for breakfast, salad with cottage cheese and croutons for lunch, soup with 1 slice seeded bread for dinner, 2 hot drinks and 500 mls of sugar free squash today. Coming in at 501 for food. Got some yoghurt and maybe a pack of skinny popcorn for later. Totally been a much easier day today.

Really looking forward to our courgette and sweet corn fritter things for dinner tomorrow! And then we're fasting again on Friday. It's a good feeling.

How is everyone?

BigChocFrenzy · 26/06/2019 21:01

Good luck, clap
Not long to go today.

You are doing really well to keep up exercise with your broken foot; it will mean much less work to get back to full fitness once your foot is healed

Sounds like you're getting in the fasting swing, mittens, sassy

filly on b2b, you get 650 cals daily, but when you have a lighter FD1,
the b2b still works if you move the "unused"calories through to FD2
e.g. many folk have a standard FD1 of 500 cals, decide on a b2b, then have FD2 of 800 cals

It works with FD2 allowing more than FD1, because you start FD2 already fasted from FD1

Since you only had 350 cals yesterday, I suggest you have up to 1000 if you need this
and then count it as a b2b

OP posts:
claptomania · 26/06/2019 21:17

And kitchen closing on 600. Pilates and weights classes under my belt too - all in all feeling pretty badass today.

I'm really enjoying everyone's FD menus. Keep them coming all.
Adding the following to my FD ideas list (never would have thought of these):

  • Mushroom stroganoff
  • Courgette and sweet corn fritters
LeukaeLucky · 26/06/2019 21:59

@claptomania hope you feel better soon
Can you swim at all?
I can't do much high impact exercise as I'm recovering from cancer and I do a lot of aqua gym

dreichuplands · 26/06/2019 22:04

I felt worse today than I did yesterday and I woke up at 5:30.
But I am prepared for tomorrow I have smoked salmon and some carb free egg white crepes that I found in Costco today.
Looking forward to having my first two FD's completed.

Fillybuster · 26/06/2019 22:09

Gosh, this morning was tough!! I had a massive wobble at lunchtime and spent 30 mins wandering around Waitrose: a hard boiled egg, more coffee and a can of palm hearts later, and I felt so much better!!
Weight class was great fun and didn’t even feel particularly hungry when I got to dinner time - had some salad, asparagus and a quorn cottage pie and closing out today on 540cals Grin

Now trying to ignore BCFs comment about being allowed more calories now that I’m done for the day....GrinGrin

Time for a mint tea and bed. Hopefully will get some sleep (& no cramps) tonight.

Well done Clap - really impressive you’re sticking at it despite the leg Flowers

And well done Mimia, 43, and Sassy - fantastic to hear how well it’s going for everyone. Hummus - how was your day?

And thank you BCF (as always) for the amazing advice and support FlowersFlowers

Fillybuster · 26/06/2019 23:35

Good luck tomorrow Dreich - hope it’s easier for you.

Mittens - any chance you could share a link to the mushroom stroganoff recipe please? Yum....

BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2019 05:06

Great b2b, filly
You really nailed it
Weight-lifting or HIIT, cirrcuits etc often reduce hunger for quite a while
It is prolonged medium cardio - running and especially swimming - that can cause hunger

Well done too, clap

Good luck, Dreich
I hope you feel better later on

lucky Weights training - free weights or bodyweight - would help build up your strength, without knackering you

Start slowly & gently, lightest weights and at your own pace; you should find you can increase your capacity within a few weeks
If you have a suitable lifting class available, explain to the trainer why you will need to start gently and take extra breaks

OP posts:
Fillybuster · 27/06/2019 07:38

Thank you BigChoc. I was feeling great until I got on the scales this morning- still absolutely no change (10.1.8). I had really been hoping this would move things along a bit; I’m sure that going to the gym 3-5 times a week after years of no exercise is having a little bit of impact on the muscle vs weight loss situation, but can’t believe that it’s not moving at all. Trying to keep the faith, but it’s been 3 or 4 weeks now so I’d expect to see some movement downwards! Sigh Sad Confused

orangeshoebox · 27/06/2019 08:39

filly have you measured yourself with a tape measure?
my goal with 5:2 wasn't weightloss, but help for an unhappy liver.
weight dropped a tiny bit (about 2kg) but my measurements, especially round waist, have gone down considerably.

OohMrDarcy · 27/06/2019 09:35

Morning all

Checking in for a Thursday FD here. Got a casserole in the slow cooker for later - the kids will have theirs with roasties or mash and I'll have it on its own.

Welcome Dreich,

43 - sorry to hear you're going through a stressful time. Always here if you want to vent!

Mittens for FDs I focus on pretty much protein / veg / water - can have some good filling meals that way.

Clap sorry to read your foot is broken - rest up and hope it heals quickly

Filly - give yourself a measure to help you in future... for now. Do any clothes feel looser? As you could be losing fat still.

Bit proud of myself for last nights dinner - I'm normally a bit rubbish with meals in summer and never fancy anything / end up eating crap. Last night I did a homemade hunters chicken in the slow cooker (not the healthiest), and put it with homemade wedges (literally sliced potatoes / tiny drizzle of oil / sprinkle of paprika - oven cooked) and a big salad. Even DS ate a third of a plate of mixed leaves, raw carrot and cucumber with his. Definitely a better habits NSV.

StarlingSong · 27/06/2019 09:38

Thank you all for the warm welcomes and good luck to all the new beginners.

Sorry to hear about your frustration filly - I second the tape measure suggestion. Whenever I begin an exercising routine I find the scale is not my friend as I often show an increase in weight even though I know I can't possibly be gaining fat.

Thanks for the advice BCF, I agree that it’s my NFDs that are letting me down with my weight loss at the moment. I’m going to take one step at a time and make nailing my FDs my priority for now and when I feel like they are once again my normal, I will MFP and sort out my NFDs.

OMAD made me feel I could end each dinner with something sugary which has opened that dangerous floodgate and now I have to work on getting the sugar back under control. All a very valuable learning experience though! Have got some delicious 85% roast almond chocolate for NFD evenings.

Had a great FD on Monday and another today. I’m very boring and have done same thing every FD since I started. Today was black coffee in morning, 2pm lunch of chicken and veg soup (165cal), 6pm butter chicken ready meal (303cal) and a packaged hot chocolate (47).

Going to weigh in tomorrow (first time in a while) and see where I am for now. Feels like a new beginning!

Good luck to all those fasting today Smile

buginarug · 27/06/2019 09:54

Good morning! Second FD for me today - I forgot to update after my first FD on Tuesday. I found it easier than I thought I would, though I had a headache when I went to bed. I think that was due to a lack of caffeine though as I'm normally a tea fiend and I only had one cup. Also I was very sleepy, much sleepier than usual and crawled into bed before 9pm. Anyone else get really tired on a FD?

NFD yesterday, but I realised last night that I hadn't followed the diet correctly. Mosley advises no snacking in between meals on NFDs, is that correct? I didn't go overboard on the calories but I did have plenty of snacks! Blush However I'm a little lighter on the scales this morning so it's ok. Will try not to snack tomorrow on my next NFD.

I'm really enjoying this thread and finding the posts so encouraging and motivating. Thanks everyone!

orangeshoebox · 27/06/2019 10:17

I'm always very tired on the day after a fd, I actually feel full of energy on a fd, but I don't restrict my cafffine very much, I just have it black without sugar.

OohMrDarcy · 27/06/2019 10:54

I don't get particularly tired on a FD, but have been caffeine free for a few years now so suspect you are right and that is it Bug. No snacking ever is something to work towards really. Its not a good habit and yet most of us do / did it - I rarely snack now and know 100% I lose more on a week where I eat the same cals but in bigger meals with no snacking. Its healthier for our bodies too - we are designed to go a period of time without eating in between meals.

Hope everyone is doing good - I'm drinking rather a lot of water because of the heat , can't be a bad thing! Have a jug next to me at my desk and am just constantly sipping / topping it up

BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2019 14:48

Well done on your FDs, starling

That's good with the water, MrD and the healthy habits for the family yesterday
Everyone: drink more water !

Good luck with your FD, MrD, buginarug

That's right, buginarug No snacking ever - snacks keep insulin raised and hinder weight loss
Eat meals, nothing between

Have any NFD treats, or even healthy fruit & nuts, as part of your meal, e.g. as 2nd course

If you can't kick the snack habit immediately, then keep raw veg in the frig for when you get desperate:
e.g. raw carrot, celery or cucumber BUT without any dip, sauce or other accompaniment

filly On any diet, it's quite usual to have a plateau - definition sts for at least 3 weeks - after you have lost a chunk of weight
Your body needs to rebalance before it can get below that weight, which is often a "set point",
i.e. a previous weight that you had for a long time

What is probably hindering you breaking through that plateau is your NFDs:
you have had a lot of social / business events at which you feasted, going by your reports
You are probably eating back the FD deficit on your NFDs

Most people can continue losing with 1 feast per week, BUT only then if their other NFDs are around TDEE and they keep to the NHS alcohol rules & the No Snacking rule

Did you do the 1 full week mfp of absoultely everything, as I suggested ?

  • it has been a shock reality checkfor many 5:2ers who have plateaued, in the past

If your 5 NFDs normally average around TDEE, then it just takes patience to break a plateau

Also, if you are still losing inches, the scales can take a while to catch up

OP posts:
mimiasovitch · 27/06/2019 15:11

I think the no snacking habit will be the greatest thing for my diet overall, once I learn to stick to it and it becomes second nature. Whenever I've calorie counted in the past, fasting or not, it's always the snacks that tip me over, and ruin enjoyment of my main meals. Getting there little by little anyway.
Had a successful fast day yesterday, and has a lovely lunch out, including dessert, with my sister today. I'll probably not have time to eat in work tonight though. It's close to 30C aNd I'm pretty sure everyone will be at the beach tonight. Comfy shoes on and water at the ready.

OohMrDarcy · 27/06/2019 16:55

Kitchen closed on 496, lovely and full up with plenty of water still to drink.

Hope everyone else is having a good FD

KnittingForMittens · 27/06/2019 17:05

I think I will do my fast days on the days I work. I had a FD today while at work and I haven't felt hungry or hunger pangs at all! I've been drinking plenty of water throughout, had a couple of cups of coffee and just had a little bit of rice, mushroom stroganoff with peas, pea snack and an apple. I fasted from 9PM - 12PM (15hrs). I am home now, and still not hungry. I will prep my chicken salad for dinner tonight, and have my dark chocolate square when I go to bed.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2019 20:05

Well done, mimi, MrD, mittens

OP posts:
KnittingForMittens · 27/06/2019 21:15

I'm such a silly fool, I ate a boiled egg thinking I was within my calorie count but I am 70cal over! I really hope that will not affected my weight loss. My weigh in is on Saturday. Hope everyone is well. And thank you @BigChocFrenzy

Fillybuster · 27/06/2019 22:31

Hey Mitten, don’t worry - I don’t think that will have too much of an impact (if any!). If you read everyone’s posts on this thread you’ll see that most people (sadly, not me....yet...) seem to lose weight quite consistently staying within the 500-650cal bounds on their FDs.

BigChoc - I would say it’s a plateau but that usually comes after an initial loss. I know I’ve dropped 3lbs or so since I started, but most of that had only gone on in the previous week or two, and disappeared right away. I’ve basically been stuck at 10.1/10.2 for several months - you’re quite right that it’s like my body thinks this is where it should be, so feels like it’s holding onto it! As you say, I need more regular NFDs (& yes, I’m working on MFP, and finding it helpful and shocking!) and to stick with the regular gym sessions (crazy weights class again tonight - thought I was going to be sick half way through it was so intense!!) and establishing good habits.

I’m trying (failing...) to hold onto the fact I’m doing this for health not just weight, and that body shape and tone will follow in due course. I shan’t be able to do 2 full fast days properly next week, as I’m spending 3 days trail riding in the north west with a friend ( woop!) but am hoping that 6-7 hours in the saddle every day, and some super careful food choices, will limit the damage.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2019 23:26

Dn't worry, mittens 70 cals of healthy protein won't affect weight loss

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2019 23:38

filly Yep, that sounds like you are eating - and drinking - back the FD deficit on NFDs

Weight loss is 90% intake for all except the most strenuous exercisers, whereas exercise is important for health & shape / toning
Try not eating back exercise calories for a few weeks- it can hinder weight loss for some people, because they burn much less than gadgets claim

Cut out any snacks except raw veg if you need something,
stick to 1 glass wine on NFDs
and use mfp to retrain your "normal", so that you can eat within TDEE longterm

You would make more progress if you can have a few weeks without the temptation of social / business feasts

OP posts: