5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Welcome Sassy!

Filly - I live 10 mins up the motorway from the new forest so I quite like to just nip to a cheap site there occasionally.

Hummus that stir fry sounds lovely - hope you enjoyed it!

Mittens - drink plenty of water! That always stops me feeling hungry.

anyone else struggling with the heat?

I aborted my planned fd mid morning because I felt faint.
tomorrow we have mid 30s forecast. so I wonder if it's pointless to try.

I did it! I can't believe it. I tried to have my homemade soup but I didn't like the taste of it I tried it yesterday and it was OK, but today it tasted rank so I opted for half a bar of 85% dark chocolate instead and that has curbed my cravings big time. I've added everything into MyFitnessPal app and ending the night at 452 calories... I hope I am doing it right.. 500 cal for ladies, 600 for men? Bring on breakfast time tomorrow! I am not craving a fry up or anything greasy, I will most likely have a nice hot bowl of porridge with banana and honey and just have a tiny lunch. Do any of yous skip breakfast? I've read there are many benefits to doing this but after IF for a day, I really could do with food in my tummy lol. Hope everyone has had a good day on plan!

@orangeshoebox it has been terrible here. Very humid! I hope you're feeling better now. See how you feel? If you don't feel up to it then don't do a FD. I'm no expert however as I only started 5/2 Saturday just gone.

breakfast is THE best meal after a fd.
porridge sounds good, but just the words 'cook' or 'warm' bring me out in a sweat.
on hot days overnight oats & frozen berries sound just about right

@BigChocFrenzy thank you! Would you recommend skipping breakfast on non fast days?

@orangeshoebox I know! I shouldn't even be thinking about porridge on a hot day but my goodness, the thought of having it just sounds so lovely! Bring on 7am lol.

Thanks for the welcome

It's been horrendously difficult for my BF today but we've made it this far. We skipped breakfast and didn't eat (had 3 tea/coffees instead) up until about half 3. Then we had a salad with a boiled egg, salad cream and some croutons. It was delicious! Then we had a stir fry about half hour ago. Still got some fruit salad to eat for our last 200ish calories. Will have brought the day in (including drinks) at 620.

Not bad for our first day. I found it relatively easy, I can get lost in a book or drink lots of squash or whatever to keep my cravings at bay so long as I don't talk about food, my bf on the other hand has found it so difficult and is miserable as sin. Hopefully if he gets through today it'll perk him up a bit and he can look forward to our porridge or shredded wheat in the morning.

Has anyone else found it easier for themselves than their partner? Or is there something about men and women that make it easier to cope? I used to not eat for most of the day before I met him and would just have a dinner and some snacks in the evening. He's always been a 3 square meals a day kind of man.

Well done mittens! I wouldn't skip breakfast personally otherwise I am starving and prone to eating crap by lunch. I usually do a scrambled egg on toast for NFDs (cooked in the microwave for speed).

bigchoc the extreme weather in Europe has made the news here - I'd forgotten that you were there. I agree, early mornings are the way to go if you want to fit in walks etc. I have just put a few bottles in the freezer so I have lovely cold water tomorrow - it's not as hot here in London, but it is edging towards 30C and very muggy.

Ended up with an odd dinner of cucumber sticks and low-calorie dressing - I forgot to buy salad leaves for my usual salad and wanted to eat something while DD was watching her 20 minutes of TV. Kitchen closed, no idea of calories as usual but should be under 500.

Well done on your 1st FD, Mittens
Yes you are doing it correctly, 500 cals for women and on FDs no alcohol or junk
85%+ cocoa choc is ok though

Orange Yes, I'm struggling with 40C in Germany, but not on today's FD because I had no appetite
So an easy 480 cals, all liquid except for a few strawberries
Normally I advise everyone to eat their cals, as this is usually much more filling than drinking them. Not today for me.

I managed my 30 km cycle commute (slowly) and my morning Body Styling class, but spent the rest of the day drinking / flopped on my sofa in front of the French windows - almost no breeze though

Oh and I'm eaten alive by mosquitos whenever I go outside, as I'm on the Rhine bank
< scratches madly, everywhere >

cycling (upright cruise style) at least gives you a breeze.
I have lots of ice cubes in the freezer and berries as well. maybe I will give it a go tomorrow.
have the alarm set to 5am so I can open all windows to catch as much cool(ish) air as I can.

Mittens On NFDs, some people do better with breakfast, some without
It's very individual

I tend to have a luxurious breakfast at the weekends, at my fav Rhine cafe, but during the week have an early lunch instead - but that is just what suits me

What Mosely now recommends, along with other fasting experts, is to have a daily fast of at least 12 hours, but no need to do longer if it doesn't suit you
So what we call daily 12:12, with an eating window of max 12 hours, e.g. 8 am - 8 pm

Whatever your WOE - nothing to do with fasting - research has shown it is much better for your health to finish eating by 8 pm at the latest each day.
Later eating / boozing significantly increases the risk of CVD, high BP and other conditions

Well done on your 1st FD too, sassy
Great job

Fasting works for both men and women - the ease of fasting depends on several factors, especially
on how healthy your insulin metabolism is - e.g. insulin resistance can make most diets tougher -
and whether you have snacking and / or junk habits, which can be difficult to break.

One thing that tends to infuriate women fasting with a male OH:
the buggers nearly always lose more quickly !

• greater testoserone, % muscle mass, less % fat, far less hormonal swings

Biology sucks sometimes.

Thanks for the info about the news, hummus
Yes, the heatwave is phenomenal - and oppressive, enervating
I worked here mostly since the late 80s and this is hotter than I've known even in July or August before
but temperatures have been gradually increasing over the last 40 years here

Thank you @BigChocFrenzy really helpful! I may do the 16:8 at some point in future but for now I will continue with 5:2 as I have not done too bad at all. I don't even think I'm hungry? I "feel" hunger pangs but I don't even think it is hunger. Just my brain telling me to eat like I've always done! I became more alert and awake in the afternoon. I'm not having sugar in my beverages from now on. I think not having sugar today made me have a crash in the morning but I got better once I had plenty of water and chicken/veg for lunch.

Sorry for posting so much this evening! Just wondering would you class very dark chocolate as junk food? I got dark chocolate because of the health benefits also.

dark chocolate is fine if you keep in mind the calories.

Of course, post as much as you want, mittens

Dark choc with at least 85% cocoa, no filling, is fine on FDs,
but high cal, so probably best keep it to a couple of squares, to leave enough calories for protein & veg

Keep lower % cocoa, e.g. 70% choc, to NFDs as that is still quite high sugar compared to non-treat food.

I woke up this morning and felt achy and sore. I am a bit dizzy as well. I'm about to eat breakfast so I'm hoping that'll get rid of it.

Feel better now. I'm hoping this will not happen every time I fast! I think I didn't actually eat "enough". I've planned my next fast so I eat breakfast, lunch and dinner all within 500 calories, mainly consisting of vegetables and protein. I hope that will not affect my weight loss.

Morning all, I'm on my first FD today. Hungry already...but determined! DH is staying out of my way as I'm prone to getting 'hangry'

@buginarug good luck! Haha hangry. I was not actually that bad but I think my next FD on Friday I will be grumpy lol but I've already planned my meals now so I spread 500 calories out, most likely for Lunch and dinner as I can easily skip breakfast.

Strange things are happening to me. I've always been a HUGE fizzy drink fiend (like 2l a day) and even when I've been dieting I've still had the odd Coke Zero/Pepsi max. Realised yesterday I'd not had one for over a week. Cracked open one last night to have with a cheeky chicken shish takeaway, took two sips and had to put it back in the fridge. Always wondered how people had half drunk fizzy in their fridge and now I'm one of them.

Good morning
I'm back and I've put on 1.2 kg during my French feast errr trip 😂
FD today
I'm planning on preparing some lentils soup and have a bowl for lunch and one for dinner
Good luck everybody

Cheese - I find fasting changes what I want to eat and drink quite considerably!

Leukae - well done getting straight back to an FD! That weight will be back off in no time.

Mittens - might just be your body getting used to fasting. Some people take a few weeks to feel normal when doing it.

mittens Especially if the weather is hot, on FDs have a teasp Marmite (glug down like medicine) mid-morning and mid-afternoon.

This replaces lost salt and other minerals that are often low until your body fully adapts to fasting, or when you are very hot

In this 40C weather, I'm taking Marmite even on NFDs

Welcome, bug 🙂
and good luckon your 1st FD
I recommend the teasp Marmite to you as well

Don't worry, lucky
Much of that holiday "gain" will be undigested food and retained water from extra carbs
An FD and a couple of dumps should get rid of most of it

cheese That's good news for you
Mosely strongly recommends against artificial fizzy drinks, even diet ones.
The sweeteners longterm change the gut flora and it is thought now that they tend to cause weight gain

Coke / pespsi - of all the fizzy crap - is especially bad longterm for organs and bones, with all the unpleasant chemicals like phosphoric acid

If you like a healthy flavoured fizz on NFDs, then try 50% apple or grape juice with sparkling water.
Best save for NFDs only, though

Oh dear, all my good intentions went flying out the window last night. Once again, it was drinking on an empty stomach that was to blame, although following that with another big Indian meal with the team really didn’t help. Lots of champagne didn’t help either...

On the plus side, my hotel booking turned out not to include breakfast anyway, which made it much easier to start today’s FD without feeling like I was missing out! Even better : no scales in the hotel bathroom means I have no idea of the damage - hopefully by tomorrow morning I should be within 1 or 2lbs of where I started the week! I even made it to the hotel gym as soon as I got up, before my meetings, and did a 25 minute Shred session . I will have to make a big effort to ignore the remains of dc3’s birthday cake in the fridge this evening, but at least I’ve got a portion of the butternut squash tagine ready in the freezer for when I get home tonight.

Thankfully the rest of this week is fairly quiet (no big celebrations or parties until Sunday evening), so I should be able to have 2 proper FDs and a couple of regular NFDs, which might help break the 10stone barrier.

Good luck to everyone else fasting today. Mittens - some people do get unusual reactions (I get awful leg cramps and tend not to sleep well the night after) but it does settle over time.