5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Thanks so much Filly for the advice and encouragement! yes, I think I can do it as long as I plan my fast days in advance. Luckily my French family do not snack so that helps me, as this is a bit of a problem for me.

Good luck all of today's fasters and those just starting out!

How frustrating for you, not being mobile, clap
but you've done really well with the upper body exercise

and you have made excellent progress on killing the snack habit

You're right, It's best to plan your full FD menu the day before
If you have milk & sugar on FDs, then measure out your total allowance for the day into 2 little pots - when it's gone, it's gone

You did well to sts, wonderful with so many social events

2 whole months in France, wow ! < the whole thead goes !>

If you want a light fasting regime, then I recommend skipping breakfast each day - it avoids the croissants & brioche calorie bombs ! - and just have black coffee, a glass of water, no juice

For lunch, have protein & a big Mediteranean salad,
then enjoy 1 portion of everything at dinner - but no seconds except for veg

Also try to stick to no more than 1 glass wine per day,
drink loads of water, eat lots of veg sides & salads
and no snacking between meals

If you don't fancy actual FDs, I suggest 2 days per week without any alcohol or sweet treats / pud, but with lots of water & veg

filly Popular FD meals:

• salmon / steak strips and large mixed salad with balsamic vinegar
• prawn / egg / chicken & veg stirfry

Welcome, belski 🙂 and good luck
2 months is plenty of time to trim down before your vacation

Lots of tips, links & recipes in the OP, under "How to Start"

On FDs:

• Plan the menu in advance, the day before, so you are not hunting in the fridge
  Don't try to have zero-cal days, because it's not sustainable over the weeks and may lead to losing muscle

• Base each meal on a moderate portion of protein, plus masses of non-starchy veg, optionally a small portion of starchy carbs
  e.g. fish / prawns / eggs with salad or stirfry veg

• No alcohol or junk whatsoever, i.e. no cake, biscuits, choc, crisps etc

• Don't snack or graze, eat preferably just lunch & supper, or supper - nothing between
  So black coffee / espresso / tea for breakfast, preferably without milk or sweetener

• Start the day with a glass of water and keep drinking

• To help avoid headaches while you adapt to fasting, glug a teasp Marmite (10 cals) - regard it as medicine, even if you hate it.
  It replenishes salt & other minerals, also boosts B vits

• Do NOT eat back any exercise calories on FDs

NFDs

If you count calories,do NOT eat back exercise caloire via gadgets.
Instead, allow for them only on NFDs, via TDEE

Try to keep 5:2 healthy habits, even at weekends:

• NHS alcohol limits,
• NEVER snack / graze between meals,
• have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal
• lots of water & veg
• cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks, even diet ones

I am done on 827 for today, am off to play tennis tonight and I know I will be good (herbal tea only) when I get back. I wouldn’t normally have eaten this early but I made something for DD before I go out and then learned that XH has arranged to see her at the last minute so she wouldn’t be eating at home 🤷🏻‍♀️, so I ate it to avoid wasting it ... sea bass (on offer on way home). Too good to waste, my portion is now in the freezer.

Well done, box

Epic fail. Ate proper breakfast and lunch and then still completely went overboard at the dinner. Too many popadoms, bajjis, pakoras, naan breads, too much curry. Really quite upset. Failed every single WoE rule
On my way home full of curry and self loathing. Back to square one tomorrow. Gutted

Move on and don't beat yourself up, filly

Next time, I suggest you be very strict about the "one plate, no seconds" rule,
because as soon as you allow yourself to go back, it is likely to turn into multiple times

Once the plate is empty, keep a glass of water in your hand, so you aren't atanding with empty hands and nothing to do

Kitchen closed on 740 and an easy FD.

Think I'll give it a go back to 500 from next week, but keep the ability to up it again if needed for a bit longer.

Filly - do try and drop the self loathing, focus on learning to love yourself as you are, it will make everything easier x

It happens to us all filly, please don't beat yourself up. Big glass of water and go to bed.

Well done box and mrd.

Kitchen closed here, I've lost track but I think about 600 cals. Good luck to all Weds fasters tomorrow.

Well done Hummus, Box & Mr D

Thanks for being so nice. I think a buffet would have been less problematic- the issue was that this was a posh Indian which served tiny things in multiple courses so it was really hard —impossible— to keep track (plus I got distracted by conversation...). At least I left before dessert! FD tomorrow and will work on the self love & forgiveness. Thank you all for being so luvverly

Well done, MrD, Hummus

I've been at swish 7-course business meals and each course is tiny
The trick is not to add accompaniments each course, just select one, e.g. bread and make it last the whole meal.
Ditto wine, have one glass, then switch to water instead of having a different wine with each course

filly you are not going to undo all your hard word with one meal! You’re not back at square one. You’ve just had a big meal, which sounds delicious.

I have had FD 1 yesterday which went OK. I ended up being up a lot the night before (work) so wasn’t sure how it would go but it was fine. If anything it helped me stay awake during the day.

Well done everyone. Don’t worry filly, you just postponed it .

I am thinking of carrying on with circa 800 today, depends how I feel during the day. I still have a portion of tomato and basil soup in my fridge at work so lunch will be about 100 Cals.

I will row tonight at the tennis club while DD plays and maybe use the stationary bike to free up my slightly stiff left hip.

I would really like to aim for BSD type eating Monday-Friday if I feel ok and my willpower holds up!

Morning all

Filly how you feeling after last night?

Wondering how blossom is doing today 🤔 hope the recovery is going ok if you see this!!

43 where you hiding?

NFD for me and got my meals planned and ready

Checking in for a FD - anyone else?

I’m so touched by all the lovely support on this thread - thank you for being so nice when I messed up. It’s not something I can really talk about to dh, and I was feeling quite distraught last night.

BCF - you’re quite right. There was lots of shared small stuff in different courses spread along the table and I nibbled rather than thought consciously about quantity. I’d say “lesson learnt” but I think it’s work in progress...

Thanks for asking Mr D. I’m 3lbs up this morning but I guess it could have been worse. Hopefully if I can put it on in one day, I can lose it just as fast (or nearly...). Appreciate that it may not be so easy to shift as it was to gain.... So FD today and will see where it goes. How are you feeling?

Does anyone else find the FD part relatively easy, it’s managing NFDs consistently that’s hard?

Box, please try not to overdo it!

Clap, how are you feeling?

Do avoid over-stressing your body, box especially with your longterm pernicious anaemia
Take your foot off the accelerator pedal !

It's NOT good to do a VLCD - which 2:5 BSD would be - in combination with an intense exercise program

I strongly recommend you do NOT do more than 2 FDs per week with all your rowing, tennis and dog-walking

VLCDs are a physical stress which combined with intense exercise - which demands plenty of protein, nutrients & energy -
can overload your immune system and / or cause chronic conditions to flare up

During BSD / Fast800, Mosely recommends very short bursts of exercise,
e.g. 3 x 10 minute walks plus one Fat Blast of 2-5 minutes HIIT and a few minutes bodyweight strength training

Good luck, clap and any other Wednesday fasters

Don't worry, filly
Much of that gain will be undigested food plus retained water from excess carbs
Keep drinking water though, so your body doesn't try to hang on to the retained water

A good FD and a couple of good dumps usually get rid of a lot after an indulgent day
Especially since you are having an FD right afterwards

For those going on vacation soon:

there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that resuming fasting right after a couple of weeks holiday gets rid of the gain much more quickly than after delaying resumption

• it may be that the body doesn't treat regained bodyfat as "permanently stored" until it's been there 10 days or so

Ah filly - I understand completely how you feel. I think if we've done so well for even a a week or two, then a bad night can convince you (for definite me) that it'll be impossible to keep it going. I am a very black and white sort of person though, so if I'm not being perfect at it then I am a bad fatty who deserves every bad thing I can think of about myself.

That said, I had a few bad days last week, but am on track this week, with a lovely fast day today. Once I move away from my daughter and her baked Camembert that is. And honestly, if I can take a step back and leave it in the past, then anyone can.

How did your FDs go, Clap & Mimia?

I’m closing the kitchen on 428cals. Two teaspoons of marmite and a small bag of radishes took me flying through to 9.30pm when I finally got to eat. Couldn’t get to the gym but managed to squeeze in a 30
Day shred (aka “Evil Gillian”) session which left me on the verge of collapse As much as I love them dearly, the drawback of older dcs is that I no longer get to eat when they go to bed at 8pm if they haven’t seen me all day!!

And Mimia - you stepped away from baked Camembert??! I am in awe of your willpower and commitment !

Fast went well thanks filly - ended up at 610. Small banana for breakfast, tuna salad for lunch, and chicken & veg for dinner.

Foot is a bit better but still not back to normal. I miss walking fast everywhere!

Are you back on it today?

Well done on your FDs yesterday, filly, clap

So frustrating for you, clap
Sounds like you may have torn a ligament - Have you been to the GP ?

When I tripped down the stairs and really tore through my ligaments, I used - with my specialist's approval - an Aircast ankle brace, as used by Andy Murray;
it helped a lot when walking and probably speeded up recovery:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=aircast+a60&i=sports&crid=TYTHNK3LSLIC&sprefix=aircast%2Cdigital-text%2C148&ref=nbsbbssii1_7

Oh Clap, that sounds really pants! . Well done on sticking to your FD in the face of all that

I weighed in at 10.1.8 this morning, so still nearly 2lbs up from before the massive Indian binge on Tuesday but less horrific. Just frustrating as I’m basically exactly where I was over a week ago, so still feel as though I’ve undone all my gains, but I know it will come. Dh reminded me that it took 3 or 4 weeks for any loss to kick in last time I did 5:2, but then it worked really well.

So, NFD today and the long awaited dinner date dh tonight. I’m travelling for work all day, so have grabbed one of those mini egg and avocado pots from m&s for late morning protein boost (I really really cannot cope with breakfast and Tuesday showed me again that once I start eating early in the day I find it hard to stop), and a sugar free porridge pot (the one you add hot water) for emergencies. No pressure to eat it as it weighs nothing and keeps forever! Hopefully the egg will avoid snacking urges, and I can have porridge if the work lunch turns out to be beige food . If I manage today well, then I can enjoy dinner with dh with a clear conscience and shouldn’t need to be scared of the scales tomorrow morning either!

Good luck to everyone fasting today

pms put hold to my planned fd this week...
feeling quite nauseus and just can't face it.
and now the period from hell - ah the joys of getting older.