5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Morning all

Saturday weigh in for me and coming up as 15st 0.2lb - happy with that! Loss for the week 1.6lb, which takes total loss to 2.st 12.2 lbs and means a couple of mino goals hit!
BMI has now just nudged down another category as it is bang on 35. I'm incredibly proud of this given that is 2 levels it has dropped this year now from obese 3 to obese 1 🎉

Also now over 40lb loss so another non food reward is coming my way!

Hope anyone else weighing in gets a good result, happy weekend all - I know mine will be

Well done MrD, that is fantastic. 🏆.

My FD didn’t happen yesterday as I was taken out for lunch. I am cooking lunch for 15 people today, with dessert and birthday cake (which I haven’t made yet!).

Adults, fussy teenagers, allergies, you name it I have it. So another NFD here but I will aim to be sensible.

My digestion feels much happier for being sensible. I don’t know about anyone else but I find that everything feels so sluggish when, like yesterday, I eat things like a panini when there aren’t ‘good’ options available.

I am aiming to fast tomorrow, I have got people staying tonight but they will go home before lunch so fasting should be ok.

Well done all!
Down 1kg here which is great, as had plateaud for 2 or 3 weeks.
I managed to twist my ankle on the stairs last night, pretty badly, and I’m worried that exercise is off the cards for the next week or so. Let alone carrying the baby around - eek.
I might MFP this week without exercise to offset calorie intake. Boo. The gym is also the only time I have to myself.

box sounds sensible to delay with all that cooking. Sounds epic!

Congratulations on your SV, MrD and what a lovely set of milestones !
Dropping 2 BMI levels this year is brilliant,🏅
So is the 40 lb milestone; you should be so proud

Enjoy your non-food reward
You'll also be enjoying the 14 stone somethings very soon

Congratulation on your SVs too, surprised, clap

Sorry to hear about your ankle, clap 💐
If it's just a couple of weeks, then instead of going for sedentary TDEE you could just be extra careful about the healthy 5:2 rules, especially no snacking, max 1 glass wine daily and being more moderate with treats

Also, why not go to the gym and sit at the exercise machines for upper body,
especially those which work the large muscle groups, e.g. sitting press, row, fly etc

box Weekend FDs are usually especially beneficial, as many people would otherwise eat over TDEE that day
So, enjoy your Sunday FD

5:2 is very flexible about moving FDs,
so I'd always recommend this to enjoy social occasions sensibly and not feel deprived
That helps makes this WOE sustainable longterm

I also have a couple of v common foods I can't eat without being sick, so I totally avoid
It's a nuisance - and inconsiderate - if people who take you out / host you, don't check that there is food you can enjoy without discomfort

Unfortunately my gym only runs classes BCF - no equipment to be found. I’ll have to think about what can be done at home with bodyweight minus ankles. Core work & upper body sounds good.

That's not what I'd call a gym, clap What a swizz
Even if it specialises, it should have at least weight benches to build strength

You could use plastic bottles of water, or tins for weights
and sit on a stable chair, or lie on a mat

Then say 3 sets of 10 reps each of
e.g. crunches, situps, bench press, upright press, side lift, front lift, biceps, triceps

Haha bcf genuinely, it’s great, just not a traditional sort of gym. They have a really restricted space (inner London) with just a few studios, and run classes all day everyday. There wouldn’t be room for equipment.

Hi everyone. I have a question: Has anyone noticed that they feel melancholy when fasting? Is there a way to correct this without breaking the fast? I have been tracking my mood for months now, and there i definitely a dip when I am in a fasted state that corrects itself when I eat. Thanks :)

loo It's unusual for fasting to be directly depressing, but some people do have emotions tied up with food and socialising over food.
So they may feel really down on days they can't do that kind of socialising on those days

However, if you already have depression, you may feel worse on FDs,
so obviously in that case, stop fasting if your depression is serious.

If not usually depressed, there may be a physical reason for you:

Mosely has said that people with significant blood sugar issues, e.g. pre/T2, generally do better with the BSD / 5:2 BSD
both because it is daily low carb and also because the 800 cals allows 3 small meals.

So, if you do 500 cal FDs, try splitting cals over lunch & dinner
or if you do this already, then try 800 low carb FDs - so no starches or fruit - and have 3 small meals

Have actual meals on FDs though - don't graze or keep having tiny snacks between meals,
because that is tougher for most folk

General FD measures:

• Try to have at least a short walk or run outside, in decent weather

• Plan meals around a good portion of protein with at least 3 different veg for the main meal(s)

• Include beans (not baked beans), lentils, peas

• Include small portions of rye bread / wholegrain carbs /oats /quinoa / etc

• Try cooking any potato or pasta and then keeping it in the fridge to eat later - this reduces the insulin impact

• Obviously no alcohol or sugary junk on FDs - anyway, that's the rule for everyone

• Avoid mashed veg / potato - have the whole veg

• No fruit juice, smoothies or dried fruit and no more than 1 small portion of fruit per FD

• No sugary / wheaty breakfast cereals

• The afternoon & evening before the FD, avoid sweet junk and keep to max 1 glass wine for the whole NFD

clap I suppose it is because lifting - including classes - is a major part of my weekly gym routine

loo I find the opposite.
I'm feeling good on a fast day, but am usually more tired the day after.

I also feel energised and positive on an FD - but I'm pretty cheerful every day

Loo
I seem to be either one way or the other on a fast day. Sometimes buzzing and full of energy, more recently I've been feeling a bit fed up and it's a big of a drag.
Advice- I suppose the same as with good, remember it will be different tomorrow.
I find exercising on a fast day really satisfying, even just a brisk walk you can visualise those cells of yours turning on the fat burn for fuel. I find that a motivational boost.

Gosh, thanks guys :) Good advice there.

if you already have depression, you may feel worse on FDs

Why is that? I am prone to depression, yes.

I have another question: how can I correct an electrolyte imbalance without breaking my fast? (I like to do clean fasts consisting of only water and black coffee).

Thank you :)

loo I like drinking herbal teas throughout the day.
for an electrolyte drink I have a mug of bouillon at lunchtime.

loo "if you already have depression, you may feel worse on FDs"

Just that it is possible, because we have no data on fasting with depression, either with or without meds

• people with depression would have been excluded automatically from all human studies of 5:2 or any other diet.

Mosely & other fasting experts advise consulting your doctor before fasting, if you take prescribed meds or have a significant medical condition and are unsure of the effects of Intermittent fasting
He also says those with a history of serious MH problems should not fast

https://thefastdiet.co.uk/michael-answers-frequently-asked-questions/

electrolyte imbalance

I take a zero cal sports electrolyte drink made from tablets

https://www.amazon.co.uk/High-Zero-Hydration-Tablets-Berry/dp/B004AV06UY/ref=sr111sspa?crid=ZP1WSXJKHA7J&keywords=high5%2Bzero%2Btablets&qid=1560025383&s=sports&sprefix=high5%2Cdigital-text%2C173&sr=1-1-spons&th=11_

clean fast ?_
I hope you mean a "clean fast" only until your FD evening meal.

I very strongly recommend against regular zero cal FDs

• It is not Mosely's 5:2

and research shows that TDEE/4 (500 cals is near enough for women) is the optimum balance for fat loss and muscle retention

If you do 2 weekly zero cal FDs, you are in mostly uncharted territory and hence this might indeed worsen depression
as well as probably losing some muscle mass over time

Wow Mr D - that fantastic!! Huge congrats on your SVs 🎉😀

You’re doing better than me, Box - ( & despite your kind words Surprised) I completely lost control today (yup, BCF, I know, I know...😥) and have at least one more huge food day coming up tomorrow...as well at 15 guests for lunch we have approx 40 people coming for a big tea party in the afternoon. I’ve been baking for weeks, and there’s no way I won’t try some of the stuff I’ve made...plus I cant fast on Monday or Tuesday. Terrified of getting on the scales - I’m pretty sure I’ve put it all back on already!

Hope you’re feeling better soon, Clap - that’s such a pain. If you can find some quiet time at home I recommend the 10 minutes abs and 10 minutes arms routines - pretty sure you can find them on you tube, - and all you need is a mat or some carpet, and ideally some weight (but tins or bottled water will work too). Hope it’s feeling better soon.

I can’t remember who asked, but mostly I have really high energy on a FD & am buzzing at bedtime, but there are occasional days when it’s a real struggle to stay awake. I’ve started doing the same as BCF & using the zero cal sports drink tablets, as I was getting awful cramps at the gym & my class teacher suggested this might help on fast days. Too early to say if they are helping.

Hope everyone’s doing well - good luck to anyone fasting tomorrow 🤞😀

Well done mrD!! Woohoo!

Signing in for a Sunday FD here. Anyone else?

Hi all, I'm going to join this thread if that's ok?
I started my new 5:2 journey last week and am on a fast day today. I've decided Sunday and Wednesday work best for me.
My sister has had massive success with this plan and I have finally bitten the bullet and gone for it.
I need to lose and 3 stone....

Welcome, Ale 🙂
and a very well done to your sister for her SV

Good luck on your FD, Hummus, Ale

I failed today Filly. Not too bad but definitely not 800 calories- still I rowed 4000m and walked the dog.

I bought some new smart scales which arrived today guess what they have me as 2kg more than my old scales - two whole kg, how fed up am I!

Well, I have not done well today! The painkillers I got at A&E make me incredibly drowsy, and as well as being inactive I’ve made some very poor food choices (hello, Chinese takeaway).

Tomorrow I must find time for some seated/floor abs work and possibly Pilates. I’ve also just ordered some dumbells. So, so annoying though as this is probably the fittest I’ve been for years.

box 800’s not too bad really. Could you do another mini tomorrow?

Welcome ale!

How was the party, filly?

Box We don't fail FDs, merely postpone them
If you stayed within about 1000 cals, that's a mini, which is fine when you are struggling with a chronic condition

Don't worry, clap
Chinese takeaway is ok on an NFD - they don't all have to be healthy, just normal food and to roughly fit into maintenance calories

Being at your fittest is a big plus, so be proud of what you have achieved

Ah box, I'd have been returning those scales! My floors are uneven so I have similar variations, and end up standing them on a particular tile so they're at least internally consistent. Drives me a bit mad.

Kitchen closed here and I'm going to bed as I'm ravenous! Lots of coffee, a really small ready meal at 11, supper at 4 which was a few tablespoons of homemade bolognese and an egg, followed by a square of chocolate. No idea of calories but I guess around 600.

Good luck Monday fasters!

Evening all

clap congrats on the SV, hope you enjoyed the chinese - nothing wrong with it occasionally on a NFD!

Loo - not melancholoy, used to get hangry at the start though whilst I was getting used to things? Oh and I agree with BigChoc on zero calorie fasts, the science doesn't seem to support them - I assume relating to sustainability as well as muscle retention.

Essential - How was your sunday FD?

ale - welcome, hope the FD was a success!

I've had an active weekend here, feel like I'm really turning a corner with the whooping cough - down to a low number of coughing fits a day and energy levels returning! As a result yesterday we did some shopping and then went and played crazy golf, this morning I took the kids swimming ( more floating for me, don't worry not overdoing it!) and then up to the park later in the day for a game of laser tag and a play... I even found myself having a go on some of the park equipment

NSV - MUCH more joining in with the DC, confidence returning!