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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

968 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/05/2019 10:15

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 06/06/2019 11:54

Well done on your FDs, cassie, filly
Good work

Yep, filly FDs are much easier after a good night's sleep
and also after a sensible evening the NFD before - 5:2ers have reported that fasting with a hangover is v difficult.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 06/06/2019 12:06

mship, cassie If your GP can't help and the pain keeps returning, have you tried a registered chiropractor ?

I had a trapped nerve in my back and in my leg over 30 years ago and nothing worked

  • I was in pain for months and couldn't train properly, until I tried the gym chiro in sheer desperation
(I'd always thought it woo before)

It worked like magic within 3 sessions and the problem has never returned
Trapped nerves do seem to be one of the ailments that chiro works for - I'd always try a doctor first for anything though

OP posts:
cassiewoowoo · 06/06/2019 12:34

Weighed today and I’m 10 stone (and a quarter of a lb Grin) I’m really chuffed!

Was craving all sorts yesterday but today I’m weirdly not hungry at all.

Earslaps · 06/06/2019 12:51

Well done cassie and hummus on your SVs!

FD today here, and you know it's going to be a tough one when you wake up hungry! Really looking forwards to dinner tonight- cod wrapped in parma ham with roasted asparagus and tomatoes. I've been drinking green tea all day and I'll have something small for lunch as there's no way I can get through swimming this afternoon with no food!

EssentialHummus · 06/06/2019 13:21

m that sounds terribly painful. It sounds like there is an expected end date for it at least, and hopefully it will start to ease soon. filly it sounds like you are also in the wars with that trapped nerve Flowers.

cassie they do surprisingly good sushi don't they? I used to love their food when I worked in the City. And well done on your SV today.

That dinner sounds super ear, I need to try that.

Thank you everyone for the good wishes, and bcf for the maintenance info. I'm quite a rule-based person, so when I start maintenance properly I think I'll work out TDEE again and allocate calories so I have specific days for treats/fewer calories/eating what I like.

Well done hummus! How much have you lost in total, and how long did it take to reach goal (if you don’t mind me asking)?

About 8 months with breaks for xmas and a holiday, 14kg/30 lbs. I have a zigzaggy graph showing every weigh-in, which really helped with motivation during some long plateaus.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/06/2019 16:22

Congratulations on your SV, cassie
You'll soon be in the 9 stone somethings

When you don't feel hungry, often your body is getting fuel from its bodyfat stores, even on an NFD

Enjoy your supper, earslaps
Swimming is known for increasing hunger, so eat your full FD allowance

Good luck to you and to any other Thursday fasters

Great achievement, hummus
Being methodical & following rules is usually a big advantage in weight loss & maintenance

OP posts:
mimiasovitch · 06/06/2019 16:24

Sorry for those with trapped nerve pain. Been there far too many times.

Not had the best of weeks. I mostly ate to TDEE, and had two excellent fast days, but there was some socialising which threw me off completely. No gain, but no loss either, which is a plus I guess. It does mean I'm having to do a fast today, after a day shift at work, and dh isn't home until later so I'm hanging in to eat with him. 500 calories will never have tasted so good.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/06/2019 19:50

Not long to go today, Mimia and all the other Thursday fasters (in W Europe)

OP posts:
Fillybuster · 06/06/2019 20:05

Well done Cassie! Sadly I was still 10.2 despite a good FD. Going to hold onto all the advice about not getting put off by the scales, especially since I’ve been exercising quite hard (by my standards...nothing compared to some of you lot!!) over the past few weeks after nothing for a few years, and I can see my body shape starting to improve a tiny bit. (A very very tiny bit. If I look in the mirror at just the right angle...and squint Wink)
Mimia - I’m impressed you’ve held steady although I appreciate your frustration. It’s annoying when it doesn’t budge, even if you know why, especially when you’ve been at it for a while.

Um, can I ask for some advice please? I’m conscious this is only week 2 properly back on this woe (I’ve been trying to re-engage for about 4 months but took a while to fully commit) and next week is a killer. For complicated personal reasons I can’t fast on Sunday or Monday; on Tuesday evening we’ve got a big work dinner; and on Thursday I’ve got a long term dinner date somewhere nice booked in with dh, and we have a “proper” family dinner as a family on Friday evenings.
I’m a bit worried I’m going to drop them all. I can definitely fast on Wednesday and could do an almost-fast on Friday, but even if I’m careful I’ll probably come in over 500’cals. Any suggestions? Should I do a couple of half days to balance it out? I’m worried that might lead me to binge eat - for example if I fast on Tuesday before the work dinner (I can’t see there being any sensible options!).

All suggestions welcome Confused

HLBug · 06/06/2019 22:05

Late in but I'm closing on 850 calories for today, which is not bad considering I didn't decide it was a FD until 5.30pm Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 06/06/2019 22:16

Well done on your exercise & shape NSVs, Filly

With at least 2 big social events, you may see a scales blip
However, it's only one week, so if it's occasional, not your normal, then don't worry

Wednesday FD and say 800 FD on Friday would help reduce any blip

Many of us fast during the day before a big evening meal out.
Have Marmite !
and optionally raw veg, no dip or dressing, for lunch

Warning:
if you fast, then do NOT have alcohol with the first course at dinner
Drink water, so you don't have alcohol on an empty tum

At dinner, keep these NFD rules:

  • NHS alcohol limit - 1 glass of wine
  • Drink lots of water
  • 1 portion of everything, but no seconds except for veg

Important:
As soon as you get home, drink water and clean your teeth
This avoids the danger of extra eating / drinking, which can happen even after a big meal

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 06/06/2019 22:17

Well done, bug on a sneaky little FD Grin

OP posts:
Fillybuster · 06/06/2019 22:49

Thanks BCF - that makes everything feel a bit more manageable. I do have stuff on a fairly regular basis, but this is definitely not a normal week for me Grin

It may seem obvious but I especially the prompt about not drinking alcohol on an empty stomach: I can see how that would be a slippery slope...!!

claptomania · 07/06/2019 05:50

Checking in for a Friday FD and up early for a tea and a Pilates class.
Terrible night’s sleep though: DS woke at 12 and took an hour and an half to settle again

claptomania · 07/06/2019 05:51

It may be a nap day in addition to a fast day here!

boxlikeamarchhare · 07/06/2019 06:58

Checking in for an 800cal day here.

orangeshoebox · 07/06/2019 07:35

checking in for a fast day.
after a calorific long weekend (bank holiday) and the heat (=ice cream) the scales gave me a shock. so this is my 3rd mini this week to get back on track

cassiewoowoo · 07/06/2019 08:18

clap when I fasted on Wednesday I was exhausted after poor sleep and longed for a nap, at least I’d have been ‘checked out’ for an hour or so of the fast day hunger Grin

Weighed today - 10st 1, so only a little bit back on after a full TDEE day yesterday, I did a really intense running club session last night and had pizza for dinner afterwards, can’t believe how quickly I get full now.

OohMrDarcy · 07/06/2019 10:06

Morning all Friday FD here and glugging away.

Off to check back on what I've missed.

Fillybuster · 07/06/2019 11:02

Well done Cassie. I’m completely stuck at 10.2, despite two really good FDs this week, exercise and decent FDEE on NFDs. Very frustrating!

Have a good one Mr D.

Since I’ve got a majorly calorific few days up ahead, I’ve decided to aim for a mini FD today. Big family meal this evening, but should be able to fast until then, and will aim to avoid carbs and sweet stuff tonight. Absolutely knackered today, so will have to see how it goes.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/06/2019 11:57

Good luck, clap, box, orange, MrD and all the Friday fasters

A nap is great any day you can, after a disturbed night,
or at the WE to catch up on a week's sleep deficit

filly Most 5:2ers lose a few lb in the first couple of weeks, even if the loss slows down afterwards to the 1lb weekly average
However, it is very individual and a few folk are unfortunately just "hard losers" on any WOE.

A few checks:

  • Have you lost anything in these 2 weeks ?
  • Is your start weight already within healthy BMI ?
  • Before 5:2, had you already lost weight, or been dieting for several months on another WOE ?
  • How many meals in these 2 weeks were celebrations / takeaways / business meals etc when you indulged more than usual ?
  • Have you completely given up snacking - other than on raw veg - and if so from when ?
  • Do you always stay within NHS alcohol limits and do you tend to also nibble on nuts, crisps etc when drinking alcohol ?
  • Do you eat a lot of sugary treats, crisps, deep-fried food ?
  • Check your TDEE with Mosely's TDEE Calc - some other ones are not so good He recommends that exercisers calculate with one activity level lower than they think
  • Do you eat back exercise calories ? It is not allowed at all on FDs and on NFDs should only be via TDEE
  • Have you tried mfp of absolutely everything you eat & drink - including measuring portions on e.g. butter, brie - for 1 week ?
OP posts:
claptomania · 07/06/2019 19:18

Nap achieved cassie! It does make a difference.
Kitchen closed here on 650, and I’m happy with that - I’m aiming for around 600 as am still BF.
How did the other Friday fasters do?

OohMrDarcy · 07/06/2019 20:05

Another successful one here clap

BigChocFrenzy · 07/06/2019 22:24

Well done, clap, MrD

OP posts:
nolongersurprised · 07/06/2019 23:07

Just checking in! 2 FDs this week, though Thursdays was a bit loose and prob sub 800. I ran for 30 minutes though. Still, I’m down a bit more to 63.4, I don’t think I’ll have any more big losses for a

filly I survived a family Easter and still lost a bit doing what you’re doing. One proper FD and then some day fasts before a big meal. It won’t matter in the long term. You won’t binge eat if you enjoy the meal and then put it behind you.