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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

968 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/05/2019 10:15

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
EssentialHummus · 04/06/2019 20:02

Well done captain. Well done on your FD 43. Done here too - one 350 cal ready meal + handful of broccoli, one large garden salad with a low calorie dressing, two cups of coffee with a little milk.

HLBug · 04/06/2019 20:05

FD done here too - 503 calories Smile

OohMrDarcy · 04/06/2019 20:28

FD kitchen closed on 800 today.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/06/2019 20:37

Well done, 43, hummus, bug, MrD and any other Tuesday fasters

That sounds a delicious FD recipe, clap

This has been a very popular veggie recipe on earlier threads, makes 4 portions @ 232 cals
BBC Good Food Butternut squash & chickpea tagine

You could optionally add a wee bit of chicken or other protein for your remaining 70 cals

OP posts:
boxlikeamarchhare · 04/06/2019 21:22

Thanks BCF, yes I definitely need a rest day tomorrow. I don’t normally row and play tennis in the same day.

Stupid planning but I had told myself I was rowing so I did it, silly me.

I am unable to give into my body and it’s issues, telling myself to keep going, otherwise I would work really hard and do nothing else.

I added some new potatoes to my smoked cod loin and steamed vegetables for dinner, felt like I needed them. Done at 900 calories.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/06/2019 23:31

Well done on your mini, Box

Now you need to cut down on work and just do sensible hours, so you have a proper life
If you are an employee, you will be forgotten the day after you leave

OP posts:
Fillybuster · 05/06/2019 00:03

That recipe looks fab Clap - thanks! Might give it a go tomorrow (although am also tempted by BCFs veggie tagine one too!)

Scales tonight read 10.4.2 after starting the day so well at 10.0.6. Feeling quite gutted even though I knew going out for dinner would be tricky as I tried hard to make sensible choices, and I left over half my dessert...Sad. Ah well, need to remember it’s not about instant success, but a woe, and will take some time.

FD tomorrow. Well done to everyone who had theirs today :)

Pineappleunder · 05/06/2019 08:35

Eeeek. Had quite a big slip on holiday. Back to it today though.
I'm a bit disappointed with myself but full of self love and not self loathe today which is a much healthier mind set.

Last time I was here you were pretty unwell MrD so I'm glad to see you're really recovering well.

Off to the supermarket shortly. We tend to do a big shop every 2-3 weeks. I'm wondering if doing this on s fast day will encourage healthy choices or if I will struggle with seeing so much food. Any experiences?

EssentialHummus · 05/06/2019 09:10

pineapple my FD food shops are always a bit weird! I now just tend to wait until the next day. Not necessarily in terms of buying junk, just odd food choices.

Weighed in this morning and am now under goal weight at 69.4 (woohoo!), so starting to think about maintenance and how to structure things so that they are sustainable.

cassiewoowoo · 05/06/2019 09:27

Who is fasting today?

I stuck to my TDEE in the end yesterday was actually a few calories under Smile

However I slept terribly last night, so I’m absolutely shattered today and have a full day at work and my friend then wants to go out this evening to the coast - probably just for a walk and no tempting food involved... I just don’t know how I’m going I keep it together today and not eat anything until dinner (small portion of HM chilli and broccoli rice) I’ve had a coffee with 100ml skimmed milk and that’s it.

Any tips on getting through a fast when absolutely exhausted?!

I just want to be in bed and for it to be tomorrow Grin

cassiewoowoo · 05/06/2019 09:28

(On the positive side, weighed this morning and I’m 10st 1 which is same weight as the day after my first fast. Grin)

OohMrDarcy · 05/06/2019 09:29

Morning all NFD for me

Filly - I never weigh at night - it is almost always a couple of pounds heavier than in the morning due to undigested food etc. I weigh 3 x a week first thing only - after each fast day and on a monday morning so I don't get too extravagent over the weekend!

Pineapple - nothing wrong with relaxing on a holiday, well done getting straight back to it! And bless you remembering how ill I've been!

Essential - congrats on another SV and time to plan maintenance - exciting!

BigChocFrenzy · 05/06/2019 11:20

filly I strongly recommend against weighing multiple times per day

Weight varies naturally through the day and it is normal to be heavier then

Also, weight varies a little from day to day, even when not dieting.
So a minor blip can easily disguise a small loss

If you really want to weigh daily, that's your choice, but trying to understand the various blips can do your head in and demotivate you.

Most people monitor the weight first thing in the morning after FD2
Even then, look at the trend over 2-3 weeks, which should be downwards.

Welcome back, pineapple
Don't worry, that holiday regain shouldn't take long to shift:
A couple of FDs and a few good poos should get rid of a good chunk Wink

Well done on your SV, cassie

When you are knackered and have a tiring day ahead, then out with a friend ....
I suggest either moving the FD to another day
or making it a miniFD (800-1000 cals) so you can add a small lunch

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 05/06/2019 11:26

Congratulations on reaching goal, hummus Star
I suggest keeping the WOE as it is for 1-2 weeks, to check weight is stable

Maintenance:

If you return to your old WOE, you return to your old weight & waist

So your new WOE will keep some 5:2 habits

  • Most folk need to keep up some form of regular fasting

Some folk do 6:1 or even 13:1 (1 FD per fortnight)
others, who want to relax and eat above TDEE, do 5:2 and eat back the deficit;
For almost everyone, 800 FDs are enough on maintenance

A few folk can just do daily 12:12 and that is enough with good habits

Maintenance Habits for Everybody

+Weigh regularly, at least weekly
If you exceed Happy Range, e.g. after a vacation, return immediately to full 5:2

  • NO snacks or grazing, ever - and have treats only as part of a meal.
  • Keep within NHS alcohol limits, both daily and weekly
  • Keep sweet / junky / alcohol treats to sensible amounts; If you like a guideline, then limit is total 20% of weekly calories
  • Drink lots of water and restrict drinks with added sugar or sweeteners
  • Eat lots of veg of different colours, aim for at least 5 per day and a fruit.
  • Regularly include beans, lentils, peas, plain yoghurt, nuts / seeds.
  • Have breaks from fasting during vacations, but keep good habits and before you start, note in your calendar the day you will return to plan and have your next FD.
OP posts:
cassiewoowoo · 05/06/2019 15:02

I bought a sushi tuna roll thing from M&S at lunch for 200 calories and I feel so much better for it.

claptomania · 05/06/2019 15:11

Thanks for the recipe BCF looks right up my street.
I do like the way this WOE encouraged mounds of veggies!

Well done hummus! How much have you lost in total, and how long did it take to reach goal (if you don’t mind me asking)?

BigChocFrenzy · 05/06/2019 16:16

Sounds tasty, cassie

OP posts:
TheMShip · 05/06/2019 18:17

I couldn't do it today. I'm faced with a choice between effective pain relief and fasting. I'm going to have to spend some extended time doing just TDEE days until I can get by without cocodamol again. It's shit.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/06/2019 20:37

So sorry to hear you are in pain, Mship Thanks

  • I hope the doctors can sort out some medication ?
OP posts:
Laniakea · 05/06/2019 21:25

Congratulations Hummus! Star

TheMShip · 05/06/2019 21:54

Thanks BCF, it's nerve pain from a pinched disc in my neck. Cocodamol for pain and ibuprofen to bring down the swelling is effective, but hard on my stomach without food. It'll improve in a few weeks, like I said, old injury, recurrent issue, it's just utterly frustrating!

TheMShip · 05/06/2019 21:55

Hummus that's fantastic! I'm so impressed at your determination, I know you've been at this for a long time.

cassiewoowoo · 05/06/2019 21:58

Finished my fast day just shy of 700 calories. Now off to sleep and looking forward to a normal breakfast in the morning Smile

Fillybuster · 05/06/2019 22:49

Weirdly easy FD despite wfh (usually I find it impossible to ignore the lure of the fridge!) - I wonder if getting a solid 8 hours sleep last night had anything to do with it?

Anyway, sailed through with no food, just water and black tea, and two teaspoons of marmite (yum!!!!) then did a 45 min hiit class, came home and cooked BCFs veg which was absolutely delicious.....although I discovered when clearing up that I had forgotten to add the chickpeas (they were still sitting on the side, open and ready to go!). Oops!!
I’ve added them to the remaining 3 portions that I’ve popped into the freezer for future FDs, but when I did the maths it meant that even 100g couscous and a spoon of Greek yoghurt I’ve come in at 313 for the whole day. That’s a first!!

Fillybuster · 05/06/2019 22:53

Cassie, between us we got it right Grin

TheMShip - I feel for you! I’ve had a trapped nerve in my neck for the past 3 or 4 weeks, with pain right down my arm, and it was unbearable for the first two weeks without painkillers, but then I felt lousy from the codeine. Thankfully it’s starting to improve but it’s still keeping me awake most nights. Yours must be way worse....definitely focus on recovery for now.

Hummus - wow!!!! That’s such an inspiration Flowers

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