5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

I don't know, perhaps I am doing too much after all, I do wonder sometimes about getting up so early to fit it all in!

My job is really busy and very stressful and I feel much better for rowing/walking (don't forget that I was too ill to do much between 2016-18 hence gaining weight).

I love butter beans in tomato sauce with carrots and rosemary - is that what we are talking about? An Italian grandmother I knew years ago used to make it in big rectangular trays when she had family events.

I hadn't thought about eating it on fast days.

Anyone else struggling to sleep well on an FD night?

Morning all

Checking in for my Tuesday FD ... once again with the plan of listening to my body and going to 800/ 1000 if needed.

I feel rather naughty, but u convinced the doc to not sign me off As I work 90% at home and my job is very flexible I figured I would be fine and be able to manage. I'm not doing my normal workload at all and resting when I need to, but heen able to work as I can means I'm not going stir crazy!

Checking in for a FD here. mrD wishing you a continued speedy recovery. Are you wfh today?

well done to all the mon fasters

everything was wrong with holiday, from delays at the airport, to just crappy accommodation (had to change apartments due to sewage smell and infestation of ants), cold and windy and rain the whole time, difficulties with my dad, plus I had taken some tablets to stop TOTM, which worked in that I didn't bleed, but i still had all of the lovely TOTM symptoms for the whole week. And given the weather, with hindsight, I should have just let TOTM happen - anyway, just annoyed that we paid so much for such a shitty week Thanks for letting me vent

FD today, feeling grumpy already but hoping I can power through.

Not read the missed pages of thread, but are you still not well mrd that's rubbish

yep WFH for most of the rest of the week Essential!

43 - that does sound like a particularly tough holiday! Don't know if you were on holiday when I said but it turns out I have whooping cough! This means I 'could' potentially be less than my best for a couple of months, however as I've had it before I'm hoping I'll be fine before that! Plus I have to be 3 weeks down already. Am mostly ok now as long as I don't do too much - too much can mean talking / moving and ends in a coughing fit with gasping for breath... all good fun! But tbh I'm bored of it and trying to ignore where possible

Oh poor you, 43 that was the holiday from hell
What a disappointment for you

MrD imo, you would recover more quickly from whooping cough if you let the GP sign you off sick

You still have the kids and the house to manage, which is tough enough on its own, when you need to rest
If you feel stir-crazy, take your bottle of water and sit in the park

Box When you are struggling with a chronic illness, that does sound too much exercise
Your body needs extra rest when trying to fight something off, or to recover.

Walking the dogs is good for you and of course essential for them

However, I recommend cutting back on the other exercise until you are 100% again
You don't want a complete relapse

So, in any one day, either rowing or another sport like tennis, not both the same day

Rowing first thing, when you have the most energy, can use up energy you need for the rest of the day
So even if you feel fine, I'd cut back to 2,000m for the day

Give yourself 2 rest days from sport when all the exercise you do is dog-walking

You need to adjust to what your body can comfortably manage, not what you wish it would

Tell your specialist your new reduced exercise plan and check if they think that is ok
If they have no recommendations, then keep the reduced program for at least 3 weeks and see how you feel

lissie Fasting, for evolutionary reasons - does tend to make you more alert
Some people find sleep on FDs harder, until they adapt to fasting

What helps:

• Save most of your calories for supper
• Cut out caffeine after 3pm
• Avoid exercise in the 3 hours before bed
• No screens in the hour before bed

fillie No, it is unusual to get cramps during FD exercise

What may help:

• Have a teasp Marmite mid-morning and mid-afternoon
• Take an electrolyte drink with you when you exercise, especially sessions of 1 hour+ in hot weather

On FDs, it is best however to avoid prolonged steady state cardio, e.g more than about 45 minutes runnng or swimming at a steady pace
This is because that kind of exercise uses more fuel from glycogen stores - which fasting depletes - and not as much from stores bodyfat as HIIT or lifting

Good luck, Hummus, MrD, 43, clap, box and any other Monday fasters

filly To get NFDs under control, I suggest these changes:

1. Put structure into the NFDs Plan your meal times and content in advance, the day before

Plan meals around protein & veg, plus 1 moderate portion of starchy carb - if you double carb, then halve the portions

If you don't know appropriate quantities, then use mfp as a guide.

For main meals, have 3+ different veg sides and have pud if other people are being served that.
If you do the cooking, have 1 portion of fruit for pud most days

Stick to the plan, no ad hoc eating

2. No seconds except veg

Have 1 generous plate for your main course, with one helping of everything.
Boost veg, lentils, beans
If you have pud, make it one sensible portion

If you find you are still hungry after meals, plan an optional last course of plain raw veg - no sauce, dip or accompaniment.
Chew them thoroughly with plenty of water.
Good choices are raw carrot, celery, cucumber, broccoli

Keep a supply prepped in the fridge

3. Drink more water

Much more effective than flavoured fizz, but sparkling plain water is fine, with ice & a slice

Have a glass of water when you get up
Have a glass before each meal
Have 1-2 glasses with each meal

4. Spread out your calories over a longer eating window, to help avoid a fasting / bingeing cycle

Many people benefit by skipping breakfast and having a shorter eating window of 8-10 hours
and / or just 2 meals in the day

BUT,
in your case the longer overnight fast sounds like it may be a part of the problem

So, push your first meal forwards as much as possible, say a brunch if you can't manage breakfast

It doesn't have to be a big meal, but it should be solid, not liquid,
e.g. a boiled egg and a slice of wholegrain toast, not a smoothie

Although it's fine to be hungry the hour before a meal, you don't want to be ravenous, if this sends you out of control

5. Check for trigger foods / situations

This may be too large portions of carbs, especially white or sugary ones
Or going off plan by eating DC leftovers

Avoid eating while doing something else, especially screens

6. Keep 5:2 healthy habits, even at weekends:

• NHS alcohol limits,
• NEVER snack / graze between meals,
• have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal
• lots of water & veg
• cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks, even diet ones

If you really struggle with no snacking, have the plain raw veg, with lots of water

Thanks for taking the time to answer in so much detail, BigChoc - I really appreciate it!

I don’t think eating late on NFDs is the problem but a lack of plan definitely is part of the issue for me. Will need to think on that a bit, as I work long hours mostly not at home, and eat out in the evening at least once a week - so I’m not really in a position to do much meal planning outside of FDs. I’m also mostly veggie, which makes the attraction of quick carbs when I’m hungry even more attractive...! Anyway, some great stuff to think about. On the snacking front, I’m aiming to quit the habit, but am working my way through cucumber, celery & carrots, with extra water, on the days when I’m desperate to munch

I’d forgotten that I always used to get awful leg cramps after a FD. Had them all night, along with my usual poor sleep after fasting, and DH reminded me this morning. Will give marmite & electrolytes a try for sure! My exercise was a 30 mins hiit abs class, then a 45 mins Pilates session which veers between stretch and hiit workout, so I think meet your suggested BC?

Fasting again tomorrow, would welcome dinner suggestions as I’m getting sick of salmon! Especially as I’m working from home (always harder to avoid the fridge...) & doing a HIIT workout at 6.30 so I can prep in advance and eat afterwards.

oh dear mrd that sounds awful, I think you should take bcf's advice and get signed off work, as she says, its enough looking after the house and children when poorly :( really hope you are on the mend quickly.

filly how about an omelette for your FD meal?

filly FD Recipes from the OP:

BBC Good Food 522* - especially good recipes
BBC Good Food 500 cal mealss* ,
Mosely LowCarbb , low carb Diet Docc
Good2Knoww , Foodie Under 200 Calss
Vegetariann*

Afternoon all. Just checking in for FD today! I've found the best thing ever in LIDL - a carton of gaspacho soup, which works out at 215 for the whole lot. I'm working late tonight so I'm having it for lunch and then the rest of my calories will be on miso soup after work and tea / coffee with almond milk. Am down over a kg from last week which is good :).
Off to catch up with thread... xx

Hello everyone!
I’m on a NFD today and wondering if you all calorie count on your NFDs and stick to your TDEE? I’m logging everything on MFP even on NFDs, and I’ve set my activity level to lightly active as I have a full time sedentary job but I run 4 x a week for an hour at a time and lift weights twice a week.

I’ve got running tonight, my veggie casserole for dinner is 500 cals and I have 300 spare for the rest of the day, had an apple and some nuts for lunch (I know nuts are high cals but had a graze box lying around!) and I’m still hungry....

I ran 10k last night (NFD) which took an hour and I subsequently went over my calories by 100 because I was craving something sweet after dinner and had a few chocolate pretzels but I really beat myself up about it.

Hello all, good luck to the Tuesday fasters! I did ok yesterday with being social, definitely over TDEE but I feel it's important to allow for that on occasion. Normal NFD today. Conference had not provided food I could eat apart from fruit and crisps, so had a bit of that, then discovered m&s do wheat free egg salad sandwiches. I'm done doing science and networking now, heading towards the airport to go home.

Filly I'm normally a planner, I put my meals into MFP the evening before and just tweak amounts of anything that gets weighed on the day.

That butter bean recipe sounds great! Will try it on a FD coming up. My next mini is Wednesday. I'm stuck hovering between 14st9-10.5, but it'll come down, I still believe I'll make 14st7 by end of month.

Cassie, are you saying you are eating 800 kcals on NFDs and 500 on a FD? It sounds like you are fasting every day - is that sustainable as a woe?

I just had poached eggs with smoked salmon & avocado for lunch, followed by a handful of cherries and a Sharon fruit....so am probably way past that already! I thought NFDs were about eating normally (albeit healthy options)? Have I missed something?

fillybuster sorry my post wasn’t very clear. No I am having my TDEE on NFDs, which is 1900ish but yesterday I went over by 100ish and don’t want the same to happen again today if I can’t help it.

Congratulations on your SV, captain
Good luck today

Your FD plan sounds healthy, but next time you may find protein & solid food more filling
Sounds like you should still have enough calories left for say a boiled egg with supper

cassie Some folk find mfp helpful, to permanently retrain "normal eating" on NFDs,
or if they just need the reassurance.

Others never use it

Whatever suits your needs.
Your WOE, your way

100 calories on an NFD won't matter and small treats make this WOE sustainable
In your case too, "moderately active" sounds more applicable for TDEE calculation, so you should have quite a bit of leeway at need.

Sounds like you did well at the conference, mship
Often tough to find anything non-beige
and the M&S sarnies were a useful find

Phew!! I was really worried for a moment there

BigChoc, you’re quite right that my problems start once I’ve started eating (blinking obvious when I write it like that!). Lunch was sensible (I think) but then I had fruit, a bit more fruit, and a (very very small) slice f cake. Bugger! Would be ok but I’m out for a proper dinner tonight, just me and my mentor, and that will definitely involve dessert and wine....shame, because the scales were nearly down to 10st this morning, which is the best it’s been in ages. Grrr...

FD again tomorrow. I need to break out of one step forward/two steps back!

filly When you go so long without eating that you are ravenous, then your control is often much less
Try to push forward your 1st meal.
If you really don't want brunch, then have 12:00 noon lunch

What I also recommend is - using your plan for the day -
for each meal put out everything in the plan for that meal.
e.g. your main course and optionally either 1 piece of fruit os small slice of cake - 1 pud only

Then do NOT eat anything else

When you eat a big meal, it creates a surge of insulin

• even protein does that, just not as much as carbs

This insulin spike increases hunger
That's why eating until no longer hungry may not work, especially if your insulin metabolism is awry

This is also why spreading out meals over up to 12 hours eating window can help,
because the insulin surge would be smaller and further apart

Hence (for those who can't stop eating in time once they start) the need for a plan and to stick to it

Bigchoc that probably explains why on fast days I do better if i do not eat a scrap until the evening then have my whole 500 calories over about two hours then go to bed. If I even have a hard boiled egg for breakfast or lunch it just makes me hungrier and more likely to cave and fail the fast.

Hello all, am still here pottering along, kinda...

Definitely have not been strict with my TDEE over the last week or so as I've been off work, but did squeeze in a fast day on Sunday and am having another today.

However...from now on I will be taking it a lot more seriously because I have found an utterly beautiful dress I want to wear for my wedding next year and it's just been reduced to half-price so I need to buy it now before it goes out of stock. But it's a) silk and b) has a low back so will look rubbish if I don't knock off a good stone or so.

I know that buying clothes 'to slim into' is generally an absolute no-no but...I don't care. I've got 14 months and I want to wear that damn dress; what could be better motivation?

I might be an idiot, pray for me

Great motivation, Maud Focus on how you'll look at your wedding
Go for it !

Buttter beans worked out brilliantly for anyone interested. This recipe - roughly, as omitted the sugar and upper the spice:

Had them with a bit of cod and and some asparagus for just under 300 cals.
And the leftovers will make an excellent lunch with a bit of feta for my second FD this week.

www.lazycatkitchen.com/gigantes-plaki/

Does anyone have any particularly good 300 cal-ish dinner recipes that they recommend?

Well done on your sv captain

Ooh maud now that's some motivation there

Fd done here but it's been tough, 1st one after hols and it's so cold and wet.... I'm coming in at 640cals but I'll take that today... next Fd planned for Thurs.