5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Joining all you lovely people on this journey after three years of denial ( that I’m overweight). Not looking forward to it though but my summer clothes are too tight and I have a beach holiday in five weeks!!

Checking in after not coming back the other FD!

NFD here but a sensible one, I went out for a late breakfast and chose an omelette with salad even though I would have loved something less healthy! Steamed fish and vegetables for dinner.

Scales unchanged this week but I feel more toned. I am back rowing but a reduced distance as I still wiped even after my injection - 😒 - am seeing my haematologist on Friday. Very frustrating.

Hey Cassie - looks like we both made it onto this thread! I’m one FD ahead of you, so come on, catch up and close the gap...you can do it!

Welcome Lissie I’m a newbie/returnee too, and everyone has been super welcoming and supportive - you’ll get loads of good advice and hand-holding, and cheering, from all the lovely people on here

How did the FD go in the end box? Your NFD sounds very controlled - especially your breakfast choices....I’m impressed!

TheMship codeine is an absolute killer for fasts, but then so is severe pain...you poor thing :( I’ve had a trapped nerve in my neck for the past 4 weeks, which has been driving me nuts, especially at night time when it’s stopping me from sleeping properly and I suspect that’s pretty minor compared to your back. Are you seeing someone for it?

NFD here, semi-controlled but I wouldn’t win any prizes. Spent the morning baking for dh’s birthday, so didn’t eat anything until lunch, and managed to avoid the luvverly fresh baked bread I served the rest of the family, but still had seconds of salmon and potatoes, so not quite a win. Even so, I’ve not snacked, and I didn’t eat dessert, and I’m even going to a really scary gym class tonight (it’s call “burn it” which has me worried! )...just got to work out what I’m going to have for dinner post-workout ahead of time, so I don’t end up overloading on carbs. Any suggestions?

Thanks Filly, it's an old injury that flares up periodically. It'll ease again in a few weeks. It has been hard to sleep without pain relief, but I think I'm on the mend now and will try no codeine tonight.

I'm making tacos for dinner, kids love them. I cheat of course, using premix spices!

Welcome, Cassie and Lissie

Good luck
Most folk get used to fasting after a couple of weeks

Lots of info in the OP, under "How to start" and WFAQs"

Keep drinking lots of water
and glug a teasp Marmite (10 cals) from the jar mid-afternoon, to replenish salt & minerals and hence avoid headaches while you adapt

Cassie Hot beef Bovril (10 cals) with a small dash of tomato puree helps FD hunger pangs

Poor mship codeine is a bugger for side effects, regardless of whether you are fasting
Keep drinking water; it helps the constipation

filly You've done really well not to snack, so that's the start of a good habit you need longterm

Some people do better eating breakfast:
a couple of eggs, or porridge for breakfast might help you avoid having seconds at lunch

Remembering the one portion of everything on NFDs:
having a piece of the fresh bread at lunch and allowing yourself one sensible pud might also help

Drink lots of water before and with your meal

Eat slowly, chew very well and be slow serving the next course when you have time, because your stomach takes 20 minutes to say when it is full

With evening training, I would have something very light, as training on a full tum can be very uncomfortable - and farty
e.g. have full fat Greek yoghurt with berries, cinammon & flaked almonds
or salmon / chicken / beef slices with salad & vinaigrette dressing, no bread

32C here but we have a very enjoyable Rhine festival, with lots of edible goodies
I enjoyed a stick of choc-dipped strawberries and one of banana

I had a couple of short walks along the Rhine, but the heat is really oppressive
so I'm flopped with a big bottle of icy water

Thank you BCF upthread. Sage advice as always.

I am generally pretty restricted to only being able to exercise in the early morning, when my husband has the baby before he starts work. I’m in a lot of 6am classes. (Who was the other early exerciser on here - sure someone else is up at the crack of dawn!)

There is a HIIT class so might need to add another morning. Or perhaps find a spin class somewhere else.
In the meantime I’m sure I can fit a few of those pull up build up exercises in. V useful videos, thanks

Hi all, very late FD sign in here - for ease I ate soups for both lunch and supper, and plenty of coffees - should be around 500 cal. I’ve not posted in the last week but am here and reading everyone’s updates. I’m still hovering about 1kg above target, as bcf predicted the last bit of weight is taking a good long while to shift!

Well done on your FD, hummus

That's a sensible NFD, Box

Maybe the B12 injection takes a bit longer to work sometimes ?
Your haematologist can hopefully suggest something, more tests, or just be reassuring.

Are you getting enough sleep and do you have at least one restday from training ?

• you may also need a couple of light training days, as rowing takes a lot of effort.

From your reports, you are getting plenty of protein and iron in your meals; your nutrition is good.

cassie I find a sachet of miso soup (about 15 cals) does a similar job to the marmite, and might be more palatable if you aren’t keen

Hello Lissie, Cassie and Filly!! FD was fine Filly . Well done on avoiding homemade bread.

I am an early exerciser Claptomania, 5:30 generally but not today as I am having a day off.

Miso soup is also my thing.

BCF, last time I felt rubbish there was something odd going on with my T cells, thankfully nothing sinister. That was one of the reasons I gained weight, went from very very active to quite unwell at times.

I don't sleep very well, 10pm until 4:45am if I am lucky, sometimes I wake up at 2am and cant get back to sleep until 4am. I have always been a rubbish sleeper, pernicious anaemia and the menopause have only made it worse.

I stopped rowing for a bit last week and have started again, I reduced my distance to 5000m yesterday and will row every other day this week to see how I feel. No rowing for me today though, I will walk the dog twice and walk to work twice = about 6 miles.

Not feeling fantastic is annoying when you are aiming for something!

Morning all.... back from truly awful holiday and back on it. Nfd today them fd tomorrow and possibly Thurs.

Will read thread when I get a chance but welcome newbies....

Started back in feb , possibly Ona different thread , but fell of the wagon and back to
Old ways in days
Rereading book and the thread fir inspiration to get Going again
Don’t know if I was having a blonde moment but I was doing 800 cal every day but I don’t know if I did read that or if I misunderstood somewhere along the line ??
Thoughts welcome x

I'm another early morning exerciser clapto- did a 6.30am spin class this morning and did a couple of early classes last week through half term.

Back on with another FD after a total week off fasting last week. I probably ate far too much as I went into 'holiday mode' with the DC on half term and me off work. I noticed though that I felt nowhere near as good with drinking a couple of glasses of wine each night and lots of cakes etc. I definitely feel better in myself when I eat a better diet and keep the wine to a couple of nights a week. I won't weigh for a couple of weeks now!

I have a bit of a headache today, I've had a tsp of marmite, a fair bit of salt and plenty of fluids today so I don't think it's dehydration. Probably related to the sore throat I had this morning.

Good luck to all Monday fasters!

That's right, box Take it easy with exercise until you see the specialist
I hope they can get you fighting fit again v soon 💐

That's really tough havin g menopause & lifelong sleep problems, on top of a chronic health problem

I can't remember what fasting system you are on atm, but I suggest raising FD calories to 800-1000, i.e. miniFDs
Just 1-2 per week until until you feel better, or if you are feeling rough, stop FDs and just do the daily 12:12
Try to have 3 meals on FDs and 3-4 on NFDs, with daily 12:12, not 16:8

Oh, what a shame about the holiday, 43 [ 🥺 bugger emoticon ! ]
Do you want to vent about what went awry ?

Welcome, jack 🙂

FDs
From experience on these threads, most women lose best with 500 cal FDs rather than 800
BUT
it's 1000 cals for EBF, 700 for other BF or (FF) first few months after birth

It's 800 cals if you have a high (2200+) TDEE,
i.e. you are a man / lots to lose / tall & young / v intense exerciser / ....

Yep, leave the scales for a while, earslaps
No point getting stressed if you have a holiday blip.

If you had a very indulgent week off, with lots of treats and booze, then that might be why the first FD back is tough.
Or you might be starting a summer cold or mild hayfever

Have plenty of protein & veg with your meal(s) to help the head

Evening all

A busy NFD here - had to go to a site for this first time with this bloody illness. Twas fun, but went with some colleagues so they did the brunt of the lifting work, I was more of a guide as i know now the site best.

FD tomorrow.

43, sorry to hear you didn't have the best holiday! Feel free to vent and let it out here, healthier than stewing on it for me anyway.

Welcome newbies!

Box sorry to hear your b12 doesn't seem to have kicked in yet, hope the specialist can sort you out!

That's right, MrD let your healthy colleagues do the lifting

..... However, with asthma & whooping cough, I'm astonished you aren't written as sick for the next several weeks ?!

Take sick leave if you can - your health & recovery are far more important than a job.

We get 6 weeks full pay in Germany, after which I think it's 80% pay

Hello Everyone
Thank you for lovely supportive messages.
Today was my first FD. Gone ok. Missed breakfast and ate a salad lunch and a weird chicken sausage tea. “Looking forward” to my treat of a decaf coffee tonight and that will be my first FD done.

Late FD check in. Totally crazy day at work (which always helps!), so just black coffee fuelled and sailed through. Didn’t even need the marmite or cucumber I picked up on the way into the office this morning! Then did an Abs class at the gym followed by an hour of Pilates...made it through but does anyone else get horrific leg or foot cramps when exercising on a FD? Combined with problematic ongoing back issue, was all a bit painful tonight.

Finally home and trying to work out whether to eat or shower first! Shower I think, for everyone’s sakes . Salmon and asparagus to come....

Will catch up on thread later on. Wish I didn’t have a super early start in the morning, I never sleep well after a FD - I’m too wired!!

Thank you BCF and MrD - I can't believe that you are back at work MrD, it seems so soon.

Well done lissie and Filly.

Tentatively booking a FD for me tomorrow, I will do 800 BCF.

I am going to row at 5:30am, for as long as feels ok, no more than 3000m (which is pathetic seeing as I had been doing three times that). I feel ok, just like I am on half power. However, I need to walk the dog twice, walk to work and play tennis tomorrow evening as well so I will see if my planned FD becomes a NFD depending on how I feel.

That’s a full day box!
FD tomorrow for me too: just planning the menu.
Coffee and small banana for breakfast, salad lunch and white fish and Greek baked butter beans in tomato sauce for dinner. There are lots of Greek veggie dishes I’m quite excited to try out on FDs

Sounds good clap. Let us know how they are, and share if good. I love Greek food.

Wow Box - how on earth do you have the energy for all of that? That’s pretty impressive, let alone not being your normal level of activity!!

Mmmmm, love the idea of tomato butter beans on a FD Please share any Greek veggie recipes that work well - I’m always looking for new ideas!

Well done Lissi - now you’ve done one, you’re on a roll!

Must go to bed, far too tired to catch up properly. Hello to all the pps who I’ve not met before, and please forgive any rudeness...I’m still getting up to speed.

BigChoc, I’d love some advice on how to handle eating on NFDs. I know you recommended not skipping breakfast, but I’m really not a breakfast person, even after a FD, so regularly go to midday / lunchtime or even mid afternoon without eating. The challenge now is figuring out what to eat when I do start, so it doesn’t all go completely pear shaped from there!