5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

So impressed by everyone’s successes and commitment....it’s really motivating! Thank you for the lovely welcome and support; I know that for me getting through a single FD isn’t really the challenge - the hard bit is going to be sticking at it!

Enjoy the cinema MrD (I so couldn’t do that without snacking!) and dinner when you finally get there Captain. It’s going to be tough not nicking bits off the dcs plates!

Box did the injection help?

Nolonger that’s pretty much my target weight too....and my target state of mind. I’ve got a way to go on both, so thanks for the inspiration

After a really good FD yesterday, I managed to avoid eating again until 3.30pm today. Sadly, I then ate two crumpets with Brie, probably undoing all that good work. Plus we’ve got guests for dinner tonight, bbq for lunch tomorrow and a party tomorrow evening....this is where I need to work on portion control and holding back a bit (& why I will be feeling blue come Monday weigh-in)

Hope everyone else is having a good day? How you getting on BigChoc?

Well done, MrD
Your water bottle is an essential FD tool !

Filly On an NFD, you should be able to have your crumpets if you want and then dinner with friends
so your NFD sounds ok

However, you'd probably feel less stressed - and fuller - if instead of the crumpets & Brie you'd had for about the same calories say:

B: Porridge with berries & flaked almond / 2 scrambled eggs, mushroom & tomato
L: chicken / smoked salmon & salad with vinaigrette / balsamic dressing

i.e. don't try to go too long without food on NFDs
and swap very energy dense food for more volume of food, with plenty of protein & veg

Relax on NFDs - just keep to the NHS daily alcohol limits - 1 x 175 ml glass wine - lots of water and no snacking

The idea is to have a normal social life, to make this WOE sustainable
Don't deprive yourself of everything

Tomorrow, with 2 potentially big meals:

at the barbecue lunch, go light: aim for 1 portion protein with lots of salad & water, no bread

then at the dinner party: have one sensible portion of everything you want, including pud, but no seconds except veg
again, lots of water, NHS alcohol limits

That's an example of how to handle social occasions

Made it!! Managed not to eat kids lunch (quesadillas) and had a miso while the we’re eating. We generally eat together in the evenings so no picking then either. Mr Captain made stir fry for dinner - kids and he had it with rice and I had mine with salad which was ... actually nice. And now I’m full and having herbal tea and life is good.

Well done MrD and Filly 2 crumpets with Brie sounds yum and like bigchoc said I think would be ok on. NFD - that’s the idea right?! My problem is fed portion control - especially around cheese!!! So that 2 crumpets with Brie would have meant 2 crumpets - plus an entire Brie triangle!!

Pleased I made it with 2 FDs this week. Trying to plan next weeks days now and looking forward to not snacking and yummy food on the weekend!!

Accidentally ate a brownie today. Nfd, so should have been ok, but I was so disappointed in myself, as I didn't even sit down and eat it slowly with a cuppa. I've stopped being cross at myself now as after dinner I'm within calorie limits, and am determined to at least enjoy any treats.

The idea is to have a normal social life, to make this WOE sustainable
Don't deprive yourself of everything

fillly this advice of bigchocs is why this WOE has worked for me. I think I’d gained weight because my metabolism had slowed (I’m 45 now) and too much snacking. What I ate was inherently ok. Some sweet stuff here and there and a glass or two of wine on the weekends notwithstanding.

However, I’ve been doing this for six months and lost 12kg and I’ve only focused on calories on the FDs. I have found the sense of restriction is less than other times I’ve tried to lose weight (after babies) because most of the time I don’t think about it. There have been some NFDs where I’ve eaten stuff with about a zillion calories in the context of social events but still lost weight for the week.

Well done, captain
You ate with the adult, not with the kids and you didn't eat their leftovers - you deserve your own food

A brownie on NFDs is ok, mimia No problem
Next time, have a cuppa with it, put your feet up and savour every mouthful. It's Mimia-time.
Enjoy your treat !

That's right, surprised Enjoy sensible amounts of treats on NFDs
When you have special social occasions, then have a portion of pud and a glass of wine, so you don't feel deprived watching everyone else - just compensate with a light meal for the rest of the day
That's participation, not gorging, so no guilt.

Yes, TDEE falls with age, even if you maintain the same amount ot exercise and muscle (most people don't)
So we probably all need to modify "normal" eating habits needs over the decades

Some people have also kept up teenage habits of eating - not just sweet things, but also frequent pizza, chips, crisps - but adults over 25 can no longer get away with eating like teens

Also, for women, hormonal changes can cause TDEE to drop sharply, e.g. pre / post / meno, or even after pregnancy etc
This changes insulin metablolism, so cutting out snacks between meals permanently - in maintenance too - is even more important.

At 45, your body is probably undergoing pre-meno changes, even if periods haven't noticeably changed

mimia, filly, letting go of the guilt is hard to do. We're so conditioned to feel shame around perceived over-eating, and we're harder on ourselves than on anyone else. You don't even need to "forgive" yourself, there is nothing to forgive, it implies that you did something wrong. You didn't! You just ate some food. It's a neutral act. Next time maybe you will eat less food, or different food instead. (And I think filly's 2 crumpets and brie sounds like a lovely NFD lunch!)

I'm heading into the slowing metabolism years now. Cutting out the snacking on NFDs is difficult when I'm an emotional eater, but it's definitely the right thing to do.

Yesterday's miniFD went really well, came in at 990 calories. Still hovering at 14st9.4, but I often have short plateaus and then 2-3lb off at a time. I'm travelling for work Monday/Tuesday and socializing in the evening, so will have my next mini tomorrow instead of Monday.

Morning all

Saturday weigh in and I'm back down to 15st 1.8lb which means I've happily lost the 2.6lb that I had gained during the worst week of my illness. Nicely happy with that. I got myself a skinny decaf vanilla (sugar free) latte at the cinema, and actually I coughed much less so not sure if it was the warm drink or the fact I stayed still for a couple of hours again

Now... Filly and Mimia - I'm not having this guilt about NFD food! The entire point about this WOE and what makes it sustainable is that there is no need for it. 2x crumpets with brie sounds delicious and fine - like bigchoc says, you might have felt better having something else but it is REALLY not a problem. The other amazing thing about this WOE for me at least is that after a couple of weeks of fasting, it started to change my appetite through no thoughts of my own. So I eat less and differently on NFDs without feeling like I'm making myself!

And just to be clear I'm going for a curry tonight! I will probably end up doing what I did the last time and have no naan again, i really didn't need it and felt no bloating because I hadn't had any. That is finding balance, still enjoying foods you love but doing it in a more balanced way . Just relax and let the 5:2 magic happen

Congratulations on your SV, MrD
The regain was obviously only a blip because of illness and consequently disrupted food & activity habits,
but it's encouraging for you that it came off so easily once you returned to the WOE

Well done on your mini, Mship

Emotional or other snackers who find it tough to cut the habit:

Swap to low cal raw veg snacks - but importantly NO dip or dressing, NO fruit (have that with a meal) -
e.g. raw carrot, celery, cucumber
Drink plenty of water with it, because veg has lots of fibre

These will not spike insulin levels and hence start a rollercoaster of insulin / emotional highs & lows
The crunchiness is satisfying, takes lots of chewing, keeps jaws and hands busy

Keep a portion prepped in the fridge each day, just in case

• and if you don't need it as a snack during the day, then have it as the final course of your supper

Thanks BCF, good advice on having ready cut veg.

I've just had my lunch early (jacket potato with tuna and sweetcorn, light mayo, no butter) because I thought my stomach was going to crawl up my throat to try and get food, I was so hungry! Like painful cramping and nausea hungry. I'd had a normal breakfast of porridge and boiled egg at 7ish. I wonder if it's the ibuprofen? It's hard on the stomach, but I have to take it for my back.

Well done Mr D. That must make you feel good .

I was meant to be working this evening and would therefore have had a fd, but my brother convinced me to swap shifts around and work today instead, to go to his for his amazing pizzas and lots of wine. I have compromised, and am driving, will have one glass of wine with my pizza, and have fasted all day to balance things out. I am about to have an apple though. What a treat

Wow, well done MrD! Especially on getting back on track after being unwell. That’s great

Mimia you’re so right. Your brownie, or my crumpets, aren’t actually bad, so it’s tackling how we think of them, and ourselves, that’s the important thing. You’d have thought I should know all of this, and about being ‘allowed’ normal food on a NFD (although BCF I totally take your point about alternative options that might have been healthier or more filling!), as I embraced this WoE really successfully for nearly 3 years, but somehow it’s all fallen out of my head!

Scales this morning, despite a dinner party (with dessert!) & g&t we’re down to 10.1.8, and I tried really really hard to make good choices (lots of salad, grilled chicken and just one sausage) during the bbq at lunch today, but still ended up eating a whole large pitta bread (although it was whole meal....not sure that helps...) and some hummus, and (eek!) three small glasses of wine. I guess the trick is going to be avoiding too many additional alcohol calories at the party this evening.

I find I can start a meal so well, with such good intentions, actually be doing quite well, and then suddenly realise a whole cake/bowl of chips/wheel of cheese has disappeared in front of me. Anyone else have this?!

Oops, that should have said TheMship is so right (although I’m sure Mimia is too!)

Well done on your SV and progress,filly

I recommend you get in the habit of having just one portion of anything, no seconds except veg.
Especially no seconds of treats

e.g. one glass of wine - per day - one piece of cake, one handful of crisps, one slice of cheese, one pita bread or roll not both

That raging physical hunger was at it again about 4:30 for me, so I had my dinner salad early, with chickpeas added for fiber and protein. No way would I have made it to 7:30 pm to eat with DH! We'll have asparagus, new potatoes, and a grilled pork chop later.

I'm unsure about doing a fourth alternate FD tomorrow now after today's experience. I haven't had hunger like that on any previous FD, and today was an NFD! Maybe my body needs two NFDs in a row to regain equilibrium. I suppose I can try, have just the mini FD egg for breakfast and see how I go?

Thanks BigChoc. In case I seem to be laying claim to success too early, I should be clear that I’ve been attempting to move back onto 5:2 for the past year or so, it’s just that I’ve not managed more than a week at a time (max) before slipping back somehow. So I’m hoping that coming back onto this thread (I think it was on 16 when I left....!) will force me to be more honest with myself, and help me keep focus. My big kick up the arse moment was when the scales read 10.6 last week, and I realised that I’ve been not only failing to lose weight for nearly a year but actually gained it during that time

I was down to 9.3 when I stopped last time. Now I’m aiming for 9.9 (stretch target might be 9.7) but first milestone (other than breaking the 10 stone mark) is 9.12.

mship What you eat on NFDs sounds reasonable, about TDEE

re the NFD hunger:

• I'd recommend boosting protein, especially fish
• Are you trying to restrict the number of meals and / or do 16:8 ? Go for 12:12 and you probably need to eat 3 decent meals on NFDs, possibly with a mini-meal at tea-time
• Are you snacking between meals ? If so, STOP and increase meal size instead

To see if a system is working, you need at least a 3 week trial
So give it that long and then review, e.g. weight & inches lost, sustainability

I'm eating 3 meals on a NFD roughly 400-600-800 breakfast-lunch-dinner. No snacks. Normally no alcohol. I swim 1-2km three times a week (and I'm a good swimmer, so this is aerobic pace) and cycle 3 miles round trip to work daily. My sedentary TDEE at 5'7", 14st9, age 39 is 1950. I struggle to eat more than the above calories in a single meal.

NFD meals today are typical:
Breakfast- porridge with soy milk, boiled egg, black tea
Lunch- microwave jacket potato, light mayo, tin tuna, sweetcorn
Dinner- small grilled chop, new potatoes, asparagus, green salad with chickpeas and vinaigrette

I'm still just under 1800 with everything weighed and measured but I wouldn't want to eat more at any one of those meals.

Oh also no time restrictions, though I do prefer to eat dinner earlier as otherwise I get reflux.

Hello all
I’ve been stalking these threads for ages now, and would like to finally say hello! Even just reading all of your progress updates has been very motivational so far, so hopefully I can contribute something too.

I’m in the second half of my year long maternity leave, and have been doing 2 FDs per week, 600 cals each as still breastfeeding. Baby is eating well now in addition to taking milk.

I feel like the diet side is going really well. 5:2 is a WOE I find easy and actively enjoyable, and can fit around family cooking. I’ve lost around 8kg since I started, fairly slowly. For the past 3 weeks I’ve plateaud from a scale weight point of view, but my clothes feel looser and I feel more toned. So hopefully that’s muscle weight put on.

What I’d really like to do is next is increase my strength and general fitness. It’s better but I want to accelerate progress. My gym is wonderful, entirely classes, in a lovely environment, and less than 10 mins from my front door. Currently my weekly routine includes 1x yoga, 2x pilates, 1x strength training and 1x boxing based cardio/conditioning session.

I feel like I need more cardio in there (possibly HIIT), and also to set some clearer fitness goals. Any ideas on how best to do this? One is absolutely to do a proper pressup as I don’t think I’ve done one in my life!

Crikey that was long! Anyway, here is 3 month’s progress. I’m very pleased!

Mship I would calculate TDEE for lightly active, which would give 2250 cals
Swimming is notorious for increasing appetite too.

If you are only consuming 1800 cals on NFDs, then you are feeling ravenous because you are eating less than you burn

• particularly noticeable probably during the long gap between lunch & dinner

I suggest you try adding a tea, as you did today, say 300 cals.

Welcome, clap
and congratulations on your SV

Your gym sounds ideal, near & nice

HIIT:

A spin class is usually good, or a circuits class, or Zumba ....
or - very effective - do rope-skipping (30 seconds the first attempt may knacker you, but build up to a few intervals of 2 minutes)

The most intense and effective HIIT - the kind Mosely recommends for fitness - is Tabata
which is 8 x intervals, each of [20 secs @ 100% effort + 10 secs recovery]

Tabata can be applied to cardio:
e.g. cycling, running, skipping, jumping, mountain climbs

or to bodyweight / strength exercises,
e.g. squatting, situps, burpees, pressups, barbells

press-ups:

The key is to keep your abs rigid and your bum down,
so that your whole body is in a rigid straight line from shoulders to heels.

Your abs work hard for this, but you can train them by doing planks

You can train your shoulder & arm muscles by doing the easier inclined press-ups [video]
e.g. hands on a bench or step, still keeping your body rigid and in a straight line

What helped another 5:2er, who started press-ups in his 70s and progressed to doing 1200 of them for charity (! )
was my suggestion of reverse press-ups, sometimes called [video]
in which you lie on the floor, make your abs rigid and then push yourself off the floor into the press-up position

If you can afford it, a short PT session concentrating on press-ups technique could also boost progress

Oh poo, I've figured it out. It's the codeine I've had to take at night for my back. I knew it made me constipated, but didn't know nausea was a side effect. Will try going back to paracetamol only and see if that helps the crazy hunger sickness.

I’ve just started 5:2 today, I only want to lose half a stone maximum and have 500 calories on my fast days.
I tend to do better if I don’t eat anything all day and then have all 500 for dinner, and go to bed when still feeling satisfied.

but.... HELP ME IM STARVING