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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

968 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/05/2019 10:15

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
boxlikeamarchhare · 21/05/2019 13:30

Thanks BCF. I might try eating a banana and drinking a glass of water at 5am tomorrow as I don’t fancy much before rowing.

Pineappleunder · 21/05/2019 19:27

Probably my most unhealthy NFD since I began a couple of weeks ago. Amazingly delicious strawberry and maple syrup and bacon and cream pancakes for breakfast. Well worth it though.
Hopefully made up for by a longer run than usual.
I'm not sure if I should make tomorrow a fast day or not, I fasted yesterday, finding I have so much more energy on FD than NFD. On fast days I don't get the mid afternoon dip which I had been putting down to my medication but now I'm wondering if it's more food related... Will have to research.

Wishing all Tuesday fasters (infact everyone) a yummy and nutritious dinner.

Ithinkyourewonderful · 21/05/2019 19:43

Fast day over. No idea on calories, but I chose salad and a tofu and aubergine dish at the vegan restaurant which should have been quite healthy, except for a fair bit of oil. Broccoli and some of the kids bolognaise sauce for dinner (no pasta). Just tea and coffee and water in between. I don't feel too starving so hope I didn't eat more calories than I should have! Hmm

Thanks for encouragement and advice BigChoc. I think I will try for another kilo or two. I'm doing ashtanga yoga 2/3 times a week, plus aqua gym and swimming and walking on other days, so hopefully I'll tone up a bit. My 60kg body at 42 doesn't look quite the same as it did in my early 20s!Wink

For the maintenance I will try 6:1 and see how that works for me. Still having to really be vigilant with the snacking - its such a bad habit for me to graze through the day as opposed to eating proper meals!

Hope everyone else fasting today went well. pineapple that breakfast sounds amazing!!

boxlikeamarchhare · 21/05/2019 19:47

I am home from tennis and have just eaten a version of your nearly yesterday’s dinner Earslaps. Food of the gods. NFD so I had smoked cod loin, crisp Parma ham, an egg and asparagus, I have seriously been thinking about it since I read your post yesterday! I think it might become a staple FD dinner without the ham.

TheMShip · 21/05/2019 20:23

That sounds like a most delicious dinner box. I'm jealous Grin. Might try that for Saturday's NFD with DH, though I'll end up stealing half his asparagus, he's not as big a fan as me.

Had a decent NFD here too. Weeknight dinners are a little tricky, I pretty much have to eat with the kids at 5:30/6ish because otherwise it won't be till 8pm and that spikes up the acid reflux. So it tends to be something from the freezer (nice because portions are set) plus a big salad.

BigChocFrenzy · 21/05/2019 20:41

Well done, everyone

I had the most delicious strawberries from the farm shop - the farm is only 100 yards away from my appartment
They have very tasty eggs & veg too
Can't beat food whose travel distance is measured in metres !

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 21/05/2019 21:20

Evening all

Still here and alive Grin

Cant work out if I'm getting better or nor but I'm bored out of my mind from zoing zero for nearly a week now. Seriously, under 750 steps for the day. Hoping when I talk to the doctor tomorrow I'm allowed to start pottering a little. On the good side DD put a curry ready meal in the oven for me tonight, so whilst not the most nutritious or calorie light meal, it was in fact a meal, progress!

Well done all, I'm reading when I can and hoping to be back to it soon

lightlypoached · 22/05/2019 07:29

My work means that I have an irregular routine -travel and overnights, team dinners out etc.

Any hints or tips from people on managing this in these circumstances?

Any advice greatly appreciated Smile

mimiasovitch · 22/05/2019 08:47

Am I ok with sparkling water over mint and cucumber on a fast day? No calories, but I'm a bit confided as to whether fizzy drinks are bad because of the fizziness itself, iyswim, rather than just the sugar/sweetener content.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2019 10:28

Just rest & recover, MrD 💐
Be patient, drink water, try not to snack between meals or comfort eat junk.

poached Plan each day so that you can eat actual meals, with plenty of protein & veg to keep you satisfied

  • avoid snacking or grazing, especially on junk
  • keep to NHS alcohol limits
  • drink lots of water and always keep water with you
  • ready salads are useful, when travelling

mimia Fizzy water is fine, lovely with ice & a slice, mint, cucumber etc - perfect and I'd count it as zero cals, including eating the cucumber & slice
Bottled fizz with no other ingredient but water & CO2, poured over these natural things, is absolutely fine

Mosely only recommends against flavoured fizz, because of sugar / sweeteners & other artificial crap added

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2019 10:31

poached with team dinners & buffets, avoid beige, deep-fried food, pies, sweet junk,
Have protein & veg sides, moderate portions of carbs without too much creamy / oily sauce
Have dessert a couple of times per week, not every time

OP posts:
Pineappleunder · 22/05/2019 10:59

Highly recommend a soda stream to people who drink lots of fizzy water. It works out cheaper in the long run and is good for the planet.
I'm very fortunate to live in the mountains near Evian so I know I'm getting lovely water too.

fiddletree · 22/05/2019 11:06

So sorry about your health, MrD. Sounds bloody awful, and especially not quite knowing the exact diagnosis. Really hoping you feel much better very soon.

Welcome to all new members, and congrats on recent SVs and brilliant FDs. Hoorah for the 60kg milestone, wonderful, you slender minx. Also I am so impressed by your exercise; mine currently consists of occasionally walking instead of driving to do the school run.

I've been out of town for a week with family - not quite a holiday, as DH was working, and we were accompanying. I fell off the wagon a bit. Tried to do a few mini FDs, and missed breakfast quite a bit, kept to the no snacking rule, but had a handful of late-evening meals where I over-indulged, including wine, as we were catching up with friends. Weighed on return and am up just over half a kilo, give or take. Not a great deal, and feel okay about that. Am still sort of amassing info for long-term maintenance and where the trade-offs/checks and balances are. I just finished a Wednesday FD in an attempt to get back on the wagon. Tuna and konjac noodles with cucumber and spring onion and soy sauce for lunch. Was on about 250 cals, but then it got a wee bit derailed by an oilier-than-intended meal of crumbed pork chops for tea. Man those breadcrumbs absorb oil. I should have baked mine, but was running late and was juggling. Don't feel hungry now, so hope the day hasn't been a total write off. At this rate, I guess it'll probably take another few FDs before I lose the gains of last week.

Today's FD was harder psychologically than usual. Think I was out of the habit. Must work on keeping my 6:1 FDs regular and a bit more rigorous. I'm still not sure exactly what my optimum weight is. Weirdly, I'm realising that in the bigger picture no one has really noticed my weight loss, in spite of it being almost 10kg. Is that usual? I guess it was probably because the gain was during/after pregnancy, and it's normal for people to gradually shrink a bit; also it's not like I'm much lighter than my pre-preg weight now, only a few kgs. I just feel a bit cheated of the NSV of people commenting on it, especially when we were seeing people I hadn't seen for a while. Totally superficial, haha.

Anyway, must stop ranting on. Have a wonderful holiday, if I'm not on the thread before then, 43!

BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2019 11:52

Congratulations on your SV and NSV, fiddle
Sometimes people are afraid to comment about weight; sometimes they are just really unobservant !

Good recommendation, pineapple

OP posts:
nolongersurprised · 22/05/2019 12:07

Day one of a b2b here, my first. All fine so far. I have gone over 650 for the sake of a single square of dark chocolate but it’s TOTM and the cramps are grim. I’ve had pain relief and a hot pack but they’re still there so I decided I needed a small amount of chocolate for medicinal purposes Smile. It’s been good to fast, with the extra fluid in I feel like it’s helped to shift some of the fluid retention.

nolongersurprised · 22/05/2019 12:11

fiddle everyone has commented on my loss and it’s making me feel really self-conscious, actually.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2019 12:41

Good luck surprised
drink plenty of water at totm - too little can actually worsen fluid retention

OP posts:
TheMShip · 22/05/2019 14:52

Need a little pick me up after 4 hours straight of meetings and seminars! I had to eat my mini lunch earlier than would have been ideal, so it's a long stretch till tea. I used to find missing breakfast fine, but the afternoon is my low point and I'm struggling today. I have a big mug of tea now and I have had lots of water, but 5:30 and vegetation chilli time is looking awfully far away still!

TheMShip · 22/05/2019 14:52

Haha vegetation chilli. Vegetarian. Grin

Earslaps · 22/05/2019 20:53

FD done. Water until 4.30pm, then had a small chunk of ham and some pickled gherkins, then very late dinner after DC's clubs of smoked haddock with spinach, tomatoes and a poached egg.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2019 21:02

Mship I know it's too late to be helpful today, but next FD afternoon maybe try a hot beef Bovril (10 cals) or Miso soup (about 35)

Well done, earslaps, Mship and all the other Wednesday fasters

OP posts:
TheMShip · 22/05/2019 21:04

I made it. My chilli was demolished. Feel much better now. Plotting my NFD for tomorrow.

milleniumhandandprawn · 22/05/2019 21:58

Well done everyone on your fastdays!
Fd done for me!
Ended up working late tonight and got home too late for dinner... effectively kitchen closed out at 200 cals!

Am definitely looking forward to breakfast though! 😂

mimiasovitch · 22/05/2019 23:08

Second fast day done, but finished on 600. I had extra tea and an apple, so at least the calories weren't bad ones. Had a gorgeous lunch of peppered mackerel fillet on a veg stir fry. Was very lovely, and might make it for lunch again tomorrow. Looking forward to breakfast now Smile

boxlikeamarchhare · 23/05/2019 05:41

FD here. I am having a day off rowing as I am feeling tired/mucles still feel like they are recovering from last night. I will still clock up 5 or 6 miles of walking and do some stretching.

Not sure what is on the menu yet, possibly greek yoghurt and blueberries for breakfast as I am feeling hungry. DD has vetoed fish again for dinner 'as we are eating it nearly every day mum!'.