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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

968 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/05/2019 10:15

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Earslaps · 20/05/2019 17:17

Oh poor you MrDarcy, fingers crossed you start to perk up soon!

box- I got my dinner wrong! Went to the fridge and realised I'd bought salmon rather than smoked haddock, so it will be salmon parmigiana with roasted veg instead. And boy I can't wait, I'm starving- only had a tsp of marmite (and my own body weight in green/peppermint tea) so far. On top of a 6.30am spin class and a couple of miles of walking- I'm on nearly 15,000 steps so far and I've apparently burned 1966 calories, so there should be some good fat burning going on right now!

BigChocFrenzy · 20/05/2019 17:28

MrD 💐 So sorry you are going through this

OP posts:
milleniumhandandprawn · 20/05/2019 17:57

Thanks so much for the wake up call bigchoc - voice of reason as always!

Will certainly take your advice :)

Today's FD is going ok. Had a mammoth undressed mainly leaf based salad for lunch, got a chicken breast with my name on it and more salad for dinner!

milleniumhandandprawn · 20/05/2019 17:58

Oh mrd that sounds so so crap.
I don't have much experience of these things, but you have all of my sympathies 😕

OohMrDarcy · 20/05/2019 20:26

Thank you, you mega supportive bunch!

Doctor has decided that I have paradoxical coughing (though I was coughing at the time so may have not heard that correctly!) Triggered by my asthma / hayfever ... he is happy for me to try and ride it out at home (I suspect he spoke to other docs before calling me) but if it gets any worse I'm off to the hospital. In the meantime, minimal movement / talking and keep taking all the drugs... he is calling again Wednesday when he hopes I will be much improved so cross your fingers all, I might make it back to real life before half term with the kids!!

Pineappleunder · 20/05/2019 20:50

Fingers crossed here for you MrDarcy. Hope you're feeling very much better soon.

TheMShip · 20/05/2019 20:58

Good luck tonight MrD! Hope you're improving by morning.

Kitchen closed on 1006 for my mini, feeling a little empty but ok. Early bed tonight.

milleniumhandandprawn · 20/05/2019 21:24

Ahhh good luck mrd - I really hope you get on top of it ok.
Fingers crossed for you
X

Just finished my fd on 504 - which included a sneaky handful of raisins... was desperate for something sweet!

BigChocFrenzy · 20/05/2019 21:40

Well done, Mship, millenium

MrD 💐 < crosses fingers > Just chill & ignore housework etc
This is when ready meals are really useful, just add some frozen veg

I've read reports that a certain type of pollen is v high this year and hence some hayfever sufferers in Britain - and Germany - have been much worse affected than usual.
Certainly my worst year

OP posts:
milleniumhandandprawn · 20/05/2019 22:02

Ah there's definitely something in that bigchoc - I've not had hayfever for years, but this last week has been awful!

Earslaps · 20/05/2019 22:24

Fast day finished here- no idea of calories, but had marmite for 'lunch', then homemade salmon parmigiana, roasted swede, butternut squash, aubergine and asparagus for dinner followed by a huge handful of blueberries and a square of dark chocolate.

My DH has also suffered really badly from hayfever this year and it started really early in the year.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/05/2019 22:30

Well done, earslaps

OP posts:
HLBug · 20/05/2019 22:40

Hi everyone, FD closing for me on 316 which feels goooood after a few days away with work. Unfortunately, despite all my tricks, I still weighed in this morning 1lb up, but I'm guessing a lot of that is undigested food as I've not been the most "regular" over the past few days. But, apart from a tired pizza debacle on Sunday night, I'm confident that I did as well as I could've done with food over the last few days, so that's got to count for something. Night all and I'll catch up on the thread tomorrow.

boxlikeamarchhare · 21/05/2019 07:16

Poor you MrD, I have got severe asthma (wellcontrolled these days) and know how debilitating and frightening it can be. Does the words your Dr used ( can’t scroll up on my phone) mean that there is another type of medication that will help?

Successful FD yesterday, I have rowed this morning and feel fine ( haven’t eaten yet).

I am definitely making the dinner you thought you were having yesterday tonight Earslap’s. I have been thinking about it since you posted it. I play tennis tonight and that will be a quick nutritious dinner when I get home.

Good luck fasters.

BigChocFrenzy · 21/05/2019 07:19

Well done on your FD, bug
A couple of good dumps might see a loss

However, don't feel tempted to try fibre supplements, or extra bran, unless prescribed by a doctor - can often clog things up even more

try this Constipation^ Recipe:^

  • 1 tbsp olive oil
  • 1 teasp lemon juice
Best to take on an empty tum, so early morning or a few hrs after eating.
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 21/05/2019 07:21

Well done on your FD too, box
An impressive exercise plan today, again
You'll be really well prepared for your rowing marathon

OP posts:
boxlikeamarchhare · 21/05/2019 07:24

I always take a little pot of linseeds with me when I travel. Just a tablespoon in a yoghurt cures travel constipation for me (always happens). One tablespoon has about 3g of fibre.

I eat it at home half the week on yoghurt and berries/fruit.

boxlikeamarchhare · 21/05/2019 07:27

Thanks BCF, I struggled at the 7500m point today but persevered. It is only as I write this I realise that it could be yesterday’s fast day. I drank 500ml of water before I started.

Beautiful morning here, I walked the dog to cool down.

mimiasovitch · 21/05/2019 08:16

Good morning everyone. I last tried this WOE about 5 years ago, but with changes to my way of work I slipped off the plan. I am now bigger than I have ever been, but have suffered a distinct lack of caring. Too much stress, cake too nice etc. We had a big night on Saturday and I woke up on Sunday morning thinking that I was done. No more being fat and hating myself for it yet not doing anything.

Sooo, I ate well Sunday and did a fd yesterday, coming in at under 550. Work is always going to be stressful, but I work a lot of Evenings so it's easier for me to fast then, as long as I resist temptation in work (restaurant). When I'm with my family I find it much harder.

I've read this and the last thread, and am fully on board, in a way I haven't been in a long time.

Pineappleunder · 21/05/2019 09:07

@mimiasovitch you sound just like me!
It's wonderful the healthy boost you get on a fast day and how it can inspire you to make other good changes, start to care more about yourself, make an effort etc.
Good luck. I know how hard it can be working around food.

CoffeeCupDayDream · 21/05/2019 09:31

Hi can I jump in please! Got on the scales this morning and almost cried. I am still carry all the baby weight from DS, it goes up and down by 7lb and has done since he was born 6 YEARS ago. I really have no more excuses!

First fast day for me today.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 21/05/2019 10:09

oh dear mrd how awful.... hope you are feeling better soon Flowers

mini fd today for me, although TOTM is imminent and I want to eat the world :( will see how I get on, just mindful of holiday on thursday and having to wear a swimming costume Grin

Ithinkyourewonderful · 21/05/2019 10:38

Hello all,
Been offline for a bit. I have reached my goal of 60kg!! After TOTM, the scales dipped again. As someone said previously, its weird because now I am here, I feel like I could loose 1 or 2 more kg. I will see how I go....

I'm still trying to figure out how I will manage maintenance. Scared I'm a bit too all or nothing! Like if I don't have the goal to lose weight, I will relax and enjoy myself a bit too much Cake

I am fasting today too. Just hot drinks so far. I have a lunch meeting today at a vegan restaurant, so will try and find something that looks filling yet not too stodgy Confused

Good luck Wednesday fasters and get well soon MrD - sounds scary and very frustrating.

BigChocFrenzy · 21/05/2019 12:08

Welcome, Mimia Smile
and well done on your 1st FD

Welcome too, coffee Smile
and good luck on your 1st FD

box Although some kinds of fasted exercise in the morning is fine for most folk,
I recommend that thise like you who are training very intensively for an event and / or doing prolonged cardio, should have breakfast first.

Otherwise, your body may not be able to obtain fuel from bodyfat at a sufficient rate and hence performance in the later part of the session can drop

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 21/05/2019 12:20

Comgratulations on reaching goal, wonderful !

Several folk on reaching goal, like you, have realised they could easily lose a few kg more, so have gone on to do so.
Check if your waist is less than half your height and if you prefer lower

Some ideas to consider, once you are within Happy Weight Range

Maintenance recommendations:

  • First 2 weeks: keep WOE unchanged, to make sure weight is stable, within Happy Weight Range

Maintenance:
If you return to your old WOE, your return to your old weight & waist
So your new WOE will keep some 5:2 habits

  • Most folk need to keep up some form of regular fasting . Some folk do 6:1 or even 13:1 (1 FD per fortnight); . others, who want to elay and eat above TDEE, do 5:2 with 800 FDs and eat back the deficit; . a few just do daily 12:12 and that is enough - for them - with good habits
  • whatever suits you

Maintenance Habits for Everybody
+Weigh regularly, at least weekly
If you exceed Happy Range, return immediately to full 5:2

  • NO snacks or grazing, ever - and have treats only as part of a meal.
  • Keep within NHS alcohol limits
  • Keep sweet / junky / alcohol treats to sensible amounts; If you like a guideline, then limit is total 20% of weekly calories
  • Drink lots of water and restrict drinks with added sugar or sweeteners
  • Eat lots of veg of different colours, but no more than 2 portions fruit daily
  • Regularly include beans, lentils, peas, plain yoghurt, nuts / seeds.
  • Have breaks from fasting during vacations, but keep good habits and before you start, note in your calendar the day you will return to plan and have your next FD.
OP posts:
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