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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

968 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/05/2019 10:15

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
cafenoirbiscuit · 18/05/2019 10:59

Morning all 😊 hope everyone is doing well this morning.
I’m wearing a pair of my ‘next-size-up-fat-girl-jeans’ today, and not only are they looser, I can pull them down without unfastening them !
I may yet get back into my old clothes ....,
I’m loving reading everyone’s stories - they do inspire me when I’ve strayed off the plan for the day. DH now is going to start.
Have a great weekend, all xx

Pineappleunder · 18/05/2019 11:08

Thank you. I'll give the gut one a read. Also a science geek and I find more motivated when I'm reading about all the good benefits. Went for a jog and just has some hommus and pomegranate (best combination ever!)
Feeling great. Loving this WOE.

SpottyDuvet · 18/05/2019 11:20

Morning everyone! Day 1 of very peaceful weekend B2B - am going to go for salmon and lentils/spinach/tomatoes for dinner tonight- and probably a big salad for lunch or a veg stirfry. I am settled into a good book and hoping not too many descriptions of good meals in it frankly.

Good luck any other weekend fasters (I can’t imagine I’ll have such an opportunity again for a while!)

BigChocFrenzy · 18/05/2019 12:11

Good luck, spotty

Well done on your "trousers falling down" NSV, cafe
Very motivating for you

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 18/05/2019 12:18

no need for high impact exercise, miffy
If you add weights to your current walking & cycling regime. that's excellent cross-training

I suggest starting with the main muscle groups, so:

Bodyweight (no weights needed): press-ups, squats, lunges, plank, tricep dips, step-ups
Plus if you can access weights: bent-over row, deadlift, overhead press, bench press

If you can go to a gym for say pump class, or even free weights on your own, they'll show you the correct lifting form

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 18/05/2019 13:23

No bcf that's over 3 weeks I think....
It's just bizarre. I'm not overthinking it until I get back off hols, I've just bought 2 pairs of size 12 jeans so I'm more than happy that shape is changing etc. I don't do hardly any exercise though (1 pilates class a week) so I think I need to increase this, again, I'll think about this after hols.

Next week I think I might do Mon Tues Weds mini fds and then I will be officially on hols from the thurs Grin

SpottyDuvet · 18/05/2019 21:10

Kitchen closed at 623 calories - I am going to bed fairly shortly with squeaky clean teeth and feeling very pious and sober.

Same again tomorrow and (here’s a sentence I never say) I am thoroughly looking forward to Monday!

Paranormalbouquet · 18/05/2019 22:09

Hi, can I join in?

5 months post baby 2. EBF. Around 20kg to lose. Gently eased in with 16:8/18:6 mostly though have accidentally had longer fasts on occasion. Losing very slowly but suppose that’s expected when breastfeeding. Need to work on snacking within the window- I am limiting white carbs and upping healthy fats which is helping.

Anyone done longer fasts/5:2?when breastfeeding?

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 19/05/2019 00:21

Wow spotty that's some determination you've got there. .mmm Halo

Welcome para have a read of the op, I think it has some advice for breast feeding, plus there are a few on here breastfeeding who might be able to give you some tips.... good luck Flowers

BigChocFrenzy · 19/05/2019 07:48

Well done, spotty and ood luck today

Welcome, paranormal Smile
The rate of loss will depend mostly on your weekly calorie deficit
a shorter daily eating window only brings significant weight loss if you are actually eating less

For EBF, I strongly recommend against long daily fasts, anyway
Your body is working too hard on EBF for that additional stress to be a good idea

Instead, move to daily 12:12 and 2 FDs of 1000 calories

  • you can build up with 1 FD per week, then 2 FDs
This is what we always suggest as standard for EBF

Within the 12-hour eating window, have 3 meals daily on FDs, 3-4 on NFDs, but NO snacks between
On NFDs, you may need to increase meal size, if you find you are hungry in between

Boost protein, as this is very filling and aim for 5+ veg per NFD
Mosely recommends increasing beans / peas / lentils if you are reducing starchy carbs
Also have full-fat Greek natural yoghurt, unsweetened e.g. with berries & flaked almond

Start each day with a glass of water and keep drinking
On FDs, glug a teasp of Marmite from the jar, to replenish lost salt & minerals while your body adapts to fasting

OP posts:
SpottyDuvet · 19/05/2019 13:11

Thank you 43 and BCF - I am feeling very saintly indeed - I have another bit of fish for lunch with loads of veg and then a two egg omelette with ham and peppers and a satsuma for the evening meal.

Still. We have half the day left but I am glad of the 650 limit anyway. I have a lot of meal based socialising this week so it definitely needs doing!

TheMShip · 19/05/2019 15:49

paranormal I've had to bulk up my meals due to cutting out snacks, and I've found half a tin of chickpeas added to a green salad adds about 120 calories and is seriously filling.

I had a good healthy NFD yesterday and was ok to face an eating out challenge for lunch today. Had a chicken Caesar without the bread bits and took my lactase pills, it was the easiest option. Was about 650 and pretty close to my current lunch target so I'm happy.

I'm doing roughly 400-600-800 for meals. My goal weight for now is 13st, I'd made it to within a couple pounds a year ago before the stress hit and I left the WOE. I was really happy in my body at that weight. My maintenance TDEE at 13st is close to what I'm eating on NFDs right now, 1840. So it's probably good that it's what I'm comfortable eating!

boxlikeamarchhare · 19/05/2019 17:16

Hi everyone, BCF and 43!! 👋🏻

I hope everyone is well. I am coming back. I haven't fasted for months but I am going to do alternate day fasting for the next three weeks.

I am training to row a marathon and the weight is falling off me (not surprising really at 600 ish cals per session four times a week minimum) so I stopped fasting.

Anyway, this is a pure vanity thing as I am going to a function the first week in June and I have bought a new dress. I sized down (three dress sizes since November!!) due to the rowing weight loss but I think I need to kick it on a bit by fasting to ensure the glass slipper dress fits Grin.

BCF - which day do you think it is better to row on - FD or NFD, I do it at either 5am or 8pm depending on my work schedule.

OohMrDarcy · 19/05/2019 19:16

Evening all

Well done to those hardcore weekend fasters and welcome to paranormal.

I suspect I've gained a little this weekend, partly from not being so much sedentary as stationary,and partly from eating crap. I was home alone and I've basically done nothing with the aim of resting and allowing my body to recover. It's less than ideal that I have to say I've seen no improvement in my peak flow over the weekend at all and I'll be back at the doctors first thing tomorrow.

Health first and all that

SpottyDuvet · 19/05/2019 19:48

Well - kitchen closed at 643 - I’m going to shower, dry skin brush, deep condition and anything else to kill time before bed and keep me out of the fridge. I SO want a glass of wine but not going to cock it up now. Teeth cleaning! Worth it to have it over for a few days - I am very out of practice!

Thursday for the next FD. Will check in before then I think.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/05/2019 20:08

I hope the doctor is helpful tomorrow, MrD 💐
Obviously, don't fast until your asthma is under control again and you feel fit

Welcome back, box and brilliant clothes NSV
Very impressive with the rowing
Since your training is so strenuous and for a marathon, hence prolonged, I'd recommend training on the NFDs
That might help maximise performance

Well done, spotty
"You can have it tomorrow" - but keep it to 1 glass wine, for NHS limits

Sounds a good plan, Mship
You're in the groove
If you have time for say 20 mins walk outside, especially when it's sunny, this can help stress

OP posts:
boxlikeamarchhare · 20/05/2019 06:36

Thanks BCF. I will do that first FD today with a late evening at work, I will row tomorrow.

I am on the bit of my training programme where I row 10000m every other session, due to increase to my first 20000m piece next week gulp.

TheMShip · 20/05/2019 07:09

box that's some serious mileage! And very impressive clothes size drop.

I think I'll take that walk advice BCF. I swim three times a week, conveniently on what should be my usual NFDs on 4:3, but tend to work through my lunch break otherwise. Getting a handle on my work related stress is probably key, as I've blamed that so heavily for emotional eating.

I hope no one minds that I'm posting a lot, it'll ease off as I get back into the WOE. DH is supportive but I don't talk about my weight or eating issues to anyone else, really. Mini today.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 20/05/2019 07:26

Post away mship that's what we're here for Smile

Hope the Dr can help mrd and that you are breathing better soon Flowers

Welcome back box the loss, dress size nsv and exercise regime are spectacular! ! Wow....

Mini for me today also, so is it 800-1000cals, no rubbish?

Hope everyone has a good day

boxlikeamarchhare · 20/05/2019 07:52

Have just read back - poor you MrD, asthma is a bugger at times and yes the steroids make me hyper too. I hope you feel better.

I am loving rowing, the only thing I have ever enjoyed doing (although a very fit, strong, capable and competitive H sucked the joy out of it for a few years). Muscle memory is amazing, despite being now only slightly fat and 50 my body remembers exactly what to do. The coach at the rowing club has admired my technique Wink.

Anyway, enough of that!!! I just love it and clearly that's the key for me. I watch Miranda for the first 30 mins, I nearly fell off my seat yesterday laughing at the osteopath episode Grin.

My dodgy knee (ACL in 2004) is not objecting at all and I feel great.

Hopefully 4:3 and rowing will be the key to having this dress fit and further weight loss - I cant see the point in buying the size that fits right now as it will probably be too big by the time the event is here.

milleniumhandandprawn · 20/05/2019 10:40

Morning all!

Well done on all of the SVs and NSVs.
box am well jel of your rowing - it's something I've never got the hang of!

mrd I hope the docs can offer you something today :(

I'm finally feeling much better after a completely nfd weekend and end of last week.

The Cold (definitely deserves a capital letter!) seems to be receding thank goodness!

Am on an FD today and totally fine so far. Will be having a marmite in a little while.

Am not expecting great things on the scales as

  1. I only will have done 1 fd since the last one and
  2. am due on my period tomorrow or Wednesday and am BLOATED.
Earslaps · 20/05/2019 11:36

Hi all, lots of activity on here! Welcome to everyone who is new or returning.

Pineapple- I really enjoyed the clever guts diet book, in fact that was what got me back into 5:2 after a five year break! I now try to eat to make my gut bacteria happy- homemade natural yoghurt, plenty of onions, garlic, loads of veg, pulses, German style rye bread and plenty of fish. I have to admit that despite all the warnings, I do still enjoy a bit of processed meat (a lentil soup without bacon just wouldn't work for me!) and I'm still eating plenty of sweet things (I have such a sweet tooth). I also loved the 'Gut' book by Giulia Enders- a fascinating read.

millenium, glad you are over your Cold. Mine is pretty much better but I am still very snotty. I got back into the exercise on Thursday and Friday as I was going crazy without my exercise! I was very sore on Saturday and did a Blaze class (hiit and weights) yesterday and a spin class this morning.

I am also fasting today and another day this week as I won't fast next week over half term. Will have some marmite and pickles at lunch time, then smoked haddock, poached egg and wilted spinach for tea (a FD favourite!).

I haven't wanted to weigh either (due to taking the 'feed a cold' advice a bit too much to heart!), but the boditrax machine on Thursday showed a little bit more fat lost and a tiny bit of muscle gained. I can definitely see some definition in my arms and my stomach now. I think I'm very nearly there on how much weight I want to lose, so I'll be switching to maintenance soon.

box- well done on the rowing! I struggle with rowing machines, the seating position seems to be all wrong for me. It is an amazing full body exercise though.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/05/2019 13:53

Mship Of course, post as often as you like Smile

  • these are lovely support threads and we all need more support at some times than at others

Box Rowing is a super sport for working all the body

  • you sound very fit & positive !
Now you're no longer drained by a stupidly competitive H, you can progess so much better

43 A miniFD is exactly the same wrt rules as an FD
Only difference is you are allowed 800-1000 cals

Good luck and to all the Monday fasters.

Well done on your bodyfat / muscle NSV, earslaps
Life without a little bacon sometimes would be very dull ! Enjoy.

I hope the doctor is helpful today, MrD
Is that your GP, or an asthma specialist ?

Good to hear The Cold is finally going, Millenium
It sounded a nasty one

I recommend NOT to weigh during totm - it's misleading and can be discouraging

We know that retained water is only temporary, so scales values would just be a blip, to be ignored
The FD after the end of totm will release the water, so I suggest weighing the next morning

Keep drinking water during totm and try to avoid the totm munchies

OP posts:
boxlikeamarchhare · 20/05/2019 16:08

I had an awful thought I had added an extra 0 to my distance after reading all your lovely encouragement but no, I am on for 20000 next week.

I am on track today a 150 cal portion of salmon for lunch with an undressed salad and I have just popped home to make a soup with puy lentils, red onion, stock and two chopped carrots for dinner before I dash back to work in an hour for a meeting. No bacon Earslaps as it’s in the freezer ☹️.

I would prefer your dinner to mine!!

OohMrDarcy · 20/05/2019 16:18

Afternoon all,

thanks for the well wishes. Doctor this morning had me on a nebuliser which made precisely zero difference to my peak flow. He is a tad baffled (he can join the club tbh), though he suspects that it isn't an asthma flare up exactly (even though peak flow down by 150 points) as steroids / nebuliser haven't increased it - even temporarily
He has given me antibiotics just in case there is a bacterial cause even though he can see no evidence of one, and is calling me around 5pm - in his words, if you're not improving by then we might be looking at moving you up the chain to A&E, but I'm not sure what they would do with you either!

So thats nice.

Anyway I'm fine as long as I literally sit / lay on the sofa and don't move or talk so I shall just exist like that for now.

Good to check in briefly and see everyone seems to be doing well and bugs are fading

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