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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

968 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/05/2019 10:15

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
EssentialHummus · 17/05/2019 10:20

Another vote for minis millennium. Hope you’re back to yourself soon.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/05/2019 10:52

nolonger a lot of people prefer them, and it is nice to get them out of the way. I only personally do them if I have no other option, but actually, they are not that bad really, plus you get 650 cals each day instead of 500 cals Grin

Give it a go and see how you get on.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/05/2019 12:14

millenium Do NOT fast when ill enough to faint

I strongly recommend you give yourself today & the weekend to recover

  • so convert the mini to an NFD if yo7 have already started - and have a good lunch & supper

However, make it healthy TLC today & this weekend to support your immune system,
so no alcohol, no sugary junk, but plenty of water, veg, protein, fruit, healthy carbs

MrD Take 100 extra cals this FD, or whatever you need for your pills
Recovering from asthma comes first
Concentrate on healthy NFDs, like millenium, to support your recovery.

btw, fasting has been used as a technique for certain kinds of asthma - e.g. Dr Johnson with ADF, long before Mosely - and many sufferers find their symptoms are reduced a lot

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/05/2019 12:19

surprised Try the b2b - you can always convert FD2 to a mini or even a healthy NFD

Good luck, MrD, 43, Maz and any other Friday fasters

Are you fasting, hummus ?

Keep drinking water, Maz, MrD - and all the fasters ! Smile

OP posts:
milleniumhandandprawn · 17/05/2019 12:23

Thanks so much all - am having a healthy NFD.
Gonna max out the nutrients today to get back to fighting strength! Am feeling like a stiff breeze could blow me over. Some crazy bug this has been!

Good luck with all of your FDs whoever is doing them!

OohMrDarcy · 17/05/2019 12:57

It is interesting BigChoc - My asthma in general has been much improved. I've not experienced any issues since feb and I normally have a flare up with temperature changes / hayfever. So I can backup the general improvements.
One thing the doc noticed yesterday is that every time I've been given steroid tablets it has been in May! There is something going on and I'll discuss it at my next review in case I can get a preventative plan in place to cover may every year!

Just eating my lunch now - halloumi / carrots / cucumber and I'm stuffed, have 100 cals spare if I'm hungry later (or 200 if I need it on BigChocs advice) but at the moment feeling good.

SpottyDuvet · 17/05/2019 13:02

Just checking in - NFD today and then aiming for B2B this weekend so gearing up for that really - it is uncharacteristically quiet and DH is off on a stag so it’s a million times easier to just get on with it.

Will check back in tomorrow!

EssentialHummus · 17/05/2019 13:04

That’s great advice.

No, not fasting today bigchoc. Followed your advice yesterday about holiday eating and had baked cod for dinner at a lovely restaurant in the old town of Chania, and scrambled egg for breakfast, with lunch just now of grilled sausages and salad. Not setting the world on fire in terms of health, but trying not to have chips, desserts etc unless I really feel like them.

TheMShip · 17/05/2019 15:24

43 that sounds lovely, but I'm lactose intolerant. Grin I actually just stopped at 1800 for the day as BCF suggested.

Hope all the Friday fasters (Darcy, 43, maz) are getting on well, despite illness. I'm doing a mini again, coping really well. Boiled egg at breakfast, carrots & hummus with some deli chicken for lunch. Dinner will be vegetarian chili on brown rice with a salad.

I think this is going to work out for me this time. I feel ok, and coming back on here for the support and hearing how you're all doing is so encouraging.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/05/2019 17:24

You sound like you are in the zone mship Smile

B2b going okayish, currently sat in macdonalds as I promised ds, a bit hungry but only because of the time and not necessarily the food as I can take or leave macdonalds. Not sure yet what's for dinner but I have about 370cals so will be fine. Hoes everyone else getting on?

BigChocFrenzy · 17/05/2019 17:42

Take care millenium
and get plenty of sleep to help your immune system, as well as nutrients

MrD There may be a particular pollen that spikes in May and triggers your asthma
I often have hayfever from late March to mid-April and my GP showed me a chart of all the different pollens from March-September Shock

This time, as the symptoms were unusually bad - my first flat on the Rhine bank ! - I closed my windows on the tree side - from the chart, I suspect a tree pollen - and I didn't doRhine walks for a week.
That got rid of almost all symptoms and they haven't returned, despite daily walks again.

You sound very positive now, Mship
and those are good healthy meals on your mini
You know you can reach goal this time

spotty Yep, grab the opportunity
A b2b at the weekend is doubly useful, since most folk eat extra on weekend NFDs

Sounds a pretty sensible plan for holiday eating, hummus

Not long to go, Friday fasters Smile

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/05/2019 17:47

43 If you ever wish (!) to eat in McD's on an FD,
I suggest a whopper no cheese, no mayo, ditch the bun and also have a plain salad bowl with balsamico dressing
Enjoy your supper, whatever you choose

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 17/05/2019 17:48

Completely agree on the pollens bigchoc, I know I'm allergic to certain trees and weeds as my hayfever normally affects me really early and late in the season rather than July/ August time. There must he something that affects me more than others in may I guess.

Anyway kitchen closed on 569 so I'm happy with that

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/05/2019 18:42

Well done mrd

Fellow hayfever sufferer here, affects me from about now until end of summer.....

B2b done in 656, had chicken and veg soup with 100g extra chicken. I am hungry though Sad I can have it tomorrow, I can have it tomorrow, I can have it tomorrow Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 17/05/2019 20:29

Well done, MrD, 43

Clean your teeth, 43 It helps

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 18/05/2019 05:05

Morning all, survived another night - even though my brain did not want to let me sleep due to the steroids!

Just weighed in at 2st 1.8lb that gives me a lovely loss of 2.4lb this week (which also balances out a couple of smaller weeks again!) And takes my total loss to 2st 10.6lb.

Very happy with that as it also means I'm comfortably through the next milestone of losing 15% of my total bodyweight this year already!

Good luck to anyone else weighing in today or those super good people going for a weekend fast! Next time I check in I'm hoping it is to say that the steroids are finally working and not that I've had to go to hospital 🙄 super restful (boring) weekend coming my way.

TheMShip · 18/05/2019 08:07

Great SV Darcy! And I'm so impressed at 43's B2B.

I closed on 924 for my mini yesterday, and woke up to my period and a 4.5lb loss. Almost entirely bloat and digested food I think! But it still feels good. 14st12.4, so 14st7 by July is quite possible.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 18/05/2019 08:14

I think you might need to stop with the weight loss now mrd if you are down to 2st 1.8lb Wink seriously though, well done especially considering the week you've had Smile

Well is it even worth saying I've STS? Thought I'd just jump on after a b2b, just in case, but no, still no movement from 11st 10lb!

Well done mship that is an impressive loss considering totm as well, fantastic Smile

Hope everyone has a good day, good luck sat fasters

OohMrDarcy · 18/05/2019 08:41

Congrats on the SV mship - fab loss there!!

Oh boooo 43! Am annoyed on your behalf, but of course as you know you are pretty much at healthy weight so it's only stubborn fat to go!

And blast, of course I meant 15st 1.8lb... I seem incapable of typing with all this so I'm relieved that is the only bit that didn't make sense tbh

Miffytastic · 18/05/2019 09:00

Oh just posted a reply and it’s disappeared into the ether.
Well done Mship MrD and others. Good luck to the weekend fasters- I am with you. Off on holiday on Friday and trying to keep on daily fast 800s until then. Going camping and wondering how to manage now as a vegan and fast800 person without much access to salad/veg for a week....

Good news is I am 9st 10.5 today and that’s a number I haven’t seen since the 1990s. Sadly I don’t have the body I did back them so still feeling a bit dissatisfied and like have more to lose. Anyone else feel that? I thought 9-10 was my goal but I don’t look how I want to. I don’t know what to aim for really...

Pineappleunder · 18/05/2019 09:44

Darcy that is an amazing SV well done! You must be delighted.
Yesterday was my third FD and I am loving it. Can't believe I had forgotten this WOE existed for so long. So pleased to be back at it, and another lb down on the scales today.
Thanks for your advice re. the booze @bigchocfrenzy It's definitely often my downfall I'm working to really reduce the days I do drink (maybe 2 a week), reduce the amount I drink on those days and then say absolutely none on the days I don't drink.

I've just re-read the original Michael Mosley book. Lots of it says about ongoing/ future research. I've seen there is an updated one, has anybody compared the two? I'd quite like to read the new one (I love the science of if all) but not if it's 95% the same as the original! I've looked briefly at the fast 800 but it looks like everything I am trying to avoid- restriction/ calorie counting everyday which as much as I would live to have the will power for, I don't!

I've woken up after my fast day not hungry in the slightest. Is there any harm in extending my fast until lunchtime today?

BigChocFrenzy · 18/05/2019 10:19

Congratulations on your fab 15% milestone, MrD
Fingers crossed that the steroids contol your asthma asap, so you can get on with your life

Well done on your SV too, Mship
Your target and beyond looks very doable

That's frustrating for you, 43
How often do you weigh ?
Was this an sts over the whole week - in which case reeaximine the NFDs - or over only the b2b ?

If over the b2b, then some people see the weight loss a day later, after a sensible NFD following the fast
So, try avoid a sod-it day in reaction and tomorrow may be better

Congratulations on your milestone too, miffy
That's a blast from the past for you !

Some people reach target and then realise they can set a more ambitious goal than they thought possible, originally
However, some of us set too high standards for ourselves - skin & bodies naturally change over the decades, especially after DC.

To decide goals:
Are you around mid-range BMI ?
and is your waist (measured at narrowest point, about 2" above navel) less than half your height ?

(From OP) Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Do you feel flabby ?

If so, then you would probably also benefit from adding exercise, especially HIIT / lifting, to tighten up.
I suggest a 20 minute online routine, e.g. Shred - I can post free Youtube links - on a couple of days per weeek
Or if you can go to a gym, then pump and spin classes

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 18/05/2019 10:40

Great svs miffy pineapple :-)

pineapple I often skip breakfast after a fd, I never feel hungry....

BigChocFrenzy · 18/05/2019 10:43

Well done on your SV too, pineapple
You are right back in the fasting swing

It's fine to extend your fast if you are not hungry
Note: best practice is not to go longer than 22 hours since your last meal.
Do drink lots of water, maybe even have some black coffee and a walk / short jog, if you are keen to maximise fat-burning

I have all the Mosely books (I'm an unashamed science geek 😂 )

"The Fast Diet revised & updated" is from Dec 2014, so is also not the latest research.

It has more information about:

  • the advantage for some folk of adding HIIT exercise
  • updated references on fasting studies, listed at the end of the book
  • research into the effects of intermittent fasting on inflammatory diseases such as asthma, eczema and psoriasis
  • recipes
  • a section on motivation

It depends whether you find this interesting, because the basis of the diet itself is unchanged

The "Clever Guts Diet" is May 2017, not much about 5:2, but goes into the effects of what we eat on our gut flora and how the changes due to e.g. some sweeteners in themselves cause long term

His recent book the Fast800, is a very restrictive VLCD - 800 cal & daily low carb - and is imo more useful for those needing to quickly reverse pre / T2, or quick loss for other health reasons

It's short term, based on a Newcastle Uni hospital plan, whereas 5:2 is longterm sustainable, with maintenance plans.

OP posts:
Miffytastic · 18/05/2019 10:55

Pineapple I’ve been doing fast800 for a couple of months now with some days off/TDEE ideally but sometimes not for exceptional reasons. I like it because the low carb/high protein food means I am not all over the shop and much less bingey/indulgent overall. 800 cals is much more feasible than I thought, for me anyway

Bigchoc- thanks again for the input Flowers. Yes doing good for most of them- BMI 22, waist ok. Depending on measurements I’m either small or medium frame so if I went on my wrist size I am not quite in the range yet. My exercise does need to increase- weights I reckon as I can’t do high impact cardio till I get back to the physio and I already walk & cycle a fair bit.