5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Must be the conference season !
I hope all your conferences are not too beige and boring, either in subject content, participants or food

Well done, MrD, Mship, Harriet

You sound well prepared for whatever they throw at you bug

Had no problem sleeping after the mini FD, often do after a full one. Was only normal hungry for breakfast. I've planned and entered my meals into MFP for today with weight estimates. I used to find that helpful, let's see if it works again!

Hello all - just checking in to see how everyone is doing - it keeps me motivated! Am in week 3 of Fast800 (with about 3 days when social life pushed me off the programme) - I didn't weigh myself before I started, or measure myself, but I'm in a pair of trousers which are a fave but were always a bit snug over the past year - and they definitely are looser now.

I'm now aiming for the rest of my wardrobe which is currently out of bounds (looking like a sausage in an over-stuffed skin effect isn't flattering!). Happy Thursday to you all

Well done on your clothes NSV, cafe
That's lost bodyfat; good progress
Soon the rest if your wardrobe will be loose !

Well done on your miniFD, Mship

In my fav restaurant, waiting for my salmon and a group of old ladies here are singing traditional German songs while they are waiting too
Tuneful & very pleasant. I wonder if they are a choir.

That sounds very atmospheric bigchoc!

How was your day 43?

Checking in from my holiday for some accountability (!). First things first: next FD when we are back home is 27 May.

We are in Crete. I don’t plan to fast while we’re here, but I want to make good food choices. We’re staying in an apartment that offers breakfast, tend to eat lunch here and then out in the evening. I’m thinking eggs for breakfast, with toast and a bit of veg (the other breakfast offerings are standard Greek fare - olives, cheese, yoghurt with stewed fruit and cereal to add, juice, coffee, pastries). Then just choosing lunch and evening meals that are healthy unless there’s something in particular I want to indulge in. I don’t tend to drink, luckily, but would happily drink litres of juice.

Does that sound alright bigchoc and others? Anything else to keep in mind?

Sounds great, Hummus
and that kind of Mediteranean food - rather than pastries or cereal - is just what Mosely recommends for good health
Enjoy lots of fish & beans too and olive oil.

morning everyone and thanks for all the birthday wishes, I had a lovely day working from home that ended with a glass of bubbly at 4pm :) more bubbly followed and a meal in the local Italian, which was amazing, oh and a tiny slice of cake today is day 1 of b2b - argh.... am so hungry already and having to avoid trips to the kitchen so that I can swerve the cake i brought in for the office!!

excellent SV daphne

just being nosy millennium but what kind of job do you do that entails lunchtime drinking

Well done to all of yesterday's fasters, there was lots

Good luck on the conference eating bug, I always find it difficult when I'm away with work as the food is always so beige as bcf pointed out

Great trouser nsv cafe

ooh essential your holiday sounds lovely, hope you have an amazing time. we fly to menorca next friday for a week and I'm hoping I can skip breakfast and then fill up on all the lovely med type food but not too much of the alioli which I adore

good luck thurs fasters

Morning all

NFD here, and eating well. I have however discovered that my cough bug last week has moved to my chest (asthma). Been bugging me all week and realised it might be baby asthma last night. Checked peak flownand it is VERY low so been to the docs and now got 5 days steroid tablets. Fingers crossed that doesn't bugger my loss this week as it is looking good so far (yeah yeah I know, priorities and all that but still!)

Yes, MShip, my Friday Fit Day has become a regular thing. Up at 5.30am for a 6.15am gym class, shower, get into football kit, drop DC off at school and then go and play football. I usually manage about 20,000 steps on a Friday!

Sorry to hear you're feeling bad MrDarcy, I hope you feel better soon and the steroids help. Just take care of yourself and don't worry about the

Still battling this cold, so I've decided not to do a proper FD today. I did do a slow 8km run and I'm doing 16:8- so not going to eat until a late lunch and then I'll eat relatively normally. I definitely need carbs with a cold! Might do another 16:8 on Saturday to balance it out, then back to two FDs next week.

I'm feeling a bit wobbly around the middle again, so I wonder if there's another 'woosh' on its way (or if it's just me overindulging of late due to feeding a cold!). I'm about the weight I was last time before it started coming off a bit again.

Good luck to all those who are fasting today.

Not fasted in a while (struggling to fit fast days in as I can't do them on days when I work in my physically demanding job and made excuses on the days I could have fasted!) My work trousers are getting tight so really need to stop with the excuses and lose a few pound again.

So thought I'd go for it today, ok so far, had a cup of tea for breakfast and just black coffee the rest of the day. I just feel so grumpy, I think I just keep thinking about something that is bothering me as it's taking my mind off food which is good as I'm not hungry but bad as I feel so stressed out today.

Anyone else get days like that?

Coulddowithanap yup! Some days it took me hours to get into the fast. Others I abandoned.

Earslaps I have a stinking cold too, have actually stayed home from the conference today, just following on the live stream instead. Sticking to my nfd plan though. I've seriously bulked out my meals to meet my TDEE and avoid snacking. Lunch was 685kcal! I'm pleasantly full now .

Take care of yourself, MrD - treating the asthma is definitely the priority
Does pollen worsen your asthma sometimes ?

Good luck, nap
Stay focused and keep busy - that usually helps
Also lots of fizzy water

Well done on not snacking, Mship
Bigger meals instead, should keep you feeling fuller longer

Yep, earslaps don't fast when you don't feel well enough,
Have a healthy TLC NFD instead, with no junk or booze
Slow-burn carbs - porridge, brown / red rice, wholegrain bread, sweet potato, quinoa etc - stay comforting for longer and won't raise your insulin so much
Beans & lentils are good too

Get well soon, MrD, earslaps, Mship and any other lurgie sufferers

oh dear mrd hope you are on the mend soon...
fingers crossed for a whoosh ears

oh dear nap is it naff of me to say have a drink of bovril and try and think some happy thoughts.... or do as I do and think of all the lovely stuff you can have tomorrow

hope you are feeling better soon too mship

B2B going okay so far, had a busy day with lots of meetings and interruptions so not thought too much about food or the cake in the kitchen tonight will be more tricky I reckon but I'm only on 313 cals at the moment so I actually have quite a few to play with

It does BigChoc but normally controlled by Montelukast tablets. My asthma is so well controlled it can take a few days before I realise that something I'm thinking is a bug is the start of it deteriorating again.

This is only the second time I've needed steroid tablets ever. Ho hum, I'm doing all the right things and it should improve quickly now. It does however explain why I've been continuing to feel exhausted quickly and after doing not much even after I thought the bug was gone.

Don't worry all, I might have a whinge but i do also know I've got to protect my lungs . FD tomorrow and we shall see what the weekend brings, if it's not a good result it isn't the end of the world and should be back to normal in a week or two (5 days of steroids)

I've gone full on BCF for tea and had a big salad with chickpeas and leftover cold salmon on top, with baked sweet potato slices on the side and light mayo dip.

I don't understand how my TDEE is so high. Without snacks I'm struggling to hit it because I just can't eat that much volume of healthy food in a single meal. Junk is another story! I'm at 1800 for the day, still 200 spare. Will plan my mini FD meals for tomorrow tonight.

Mship If you feel satisfied and are getting sufficient nutrients, then there is no need to eat to full TDEE
Don't worry over a few hundred per day, or even several hundred
and certainly never eat just to reach TDEE, especially not junk

Eat to full TDEE if hungry, but stop if no longer hungry

You have a great advantage with a high TDEE, because you can have a higher weekly calorie deficit and hence can lose more quickly than most folk
You don't have to plan so much if you have social events during the weight loss phase, because it will probably even out

TDEE is a function of weight, height, age and activity level
(& sex - men will have a higher TDEE for the identical values of those 4 parameters)

If you have quite a bit to lose, then your TDEE at goal will be lower
So it is actually very useful if you naturally eat less than your current TDEE - most folk have to retrain their habits as they lose the stone.

Your experience illustrates why snacking puts on weight !

Snacking makes it much easier to eat more in total over the day
Hence why snacks are recommended for those who are underweight, who struggle to maintain or gain weight

Day 1 of b2b done at 610cals.... hope everyone else is having a good day.

mship your salad sounds lovely. Why don't you add some full fat Greek yogurt for pudding on nfds, the calories will soon disappear, or use some full fat cheese in your cooking etc?

Friday morning here, up far too early as DD2 had swimming and even though DH took her I got up to help her get her lunch etc together. I’ve gone back to bed until the others wake up!

Everyone is sick with colds! MrD hope you’re feeling better soon!

I finished my second FD yesterday, too much milky coffee but not too much food. If I’m honest all my FDs are around 650-700 with the additional cals from milk in hot drinks. If I’m home I’ll try to make it almond milk. I’m down 300g to 64.3 with only 300g to go so it’s still working for me. When I’m at maintenance I think I’ll aim for one 500cal FD and one for sub 800.

I was poking my tummy last night and it’s a bit crinkly below my belly button when I lie down although fine when I’m standing up. My 11 kg total weight loss has been slow and come off all over my body though so I don’t think it’s that, more the physical consequences of having 4 children!

Good luck to the thurs fasters finishing (Northern hemisphere) and Friday fasters starting.

Well done on your FD, 43, surprised

and on your SV, surprised

2 x 800 FDs is usually sufficient on maintenance for nearly everyone and allows you to eat back the FD calories so you can indulge more on NFDs - especially useful for those with low TDEE

Those who have retrained their eating habits on NFDs to what they burn may need only 13:1 (1 FD per fortnight) or even just daily 12:12

For everyone, keeping the 5:2 healthy habits on maintenance - especially NHS daily & weekly alcohol limits, no snacking - really helps avoid regain

Morning all,

I'm checking in for my Friday FD. Asthma not improving yet (peak flow around half its usual number), but the steroids will kick in soon. Only downside is I have to eat with them, so this morning I've gone for a pack of DS' fridge raiders - basically just chicken and less than 50 cals so hopefully it wont affect my day too much. Fully prepared to up the cals if I need to but fingers crossed I dont.

Anyone else checking in for Friday?

Morning all,

Good luck with your fd mrd!

Really hope everyone gets better soon - these colds SUCK!!

Just checking in for either a kick up the ass or permission to slack off..
Have been properly ill this week with the cold from hell.
Did a fd on Monday, and then was going to do one on weds but got scuppered by a business lunch. So I pushed it to Thursday... but then fainted at work (not related to fd I think - was actually a head rush brought on by nose blowing...) so went home and then ate lots of toast and marmite.
Today I'm hoping that the cold is going, and I feel like I've done nothing but make excuses all week.
Do I

1. do a fast day which will mean not eating until dinner because Friday is Homebased (so no alcohol) date night or
2. give myself this weekend (albeit with healthy choices) to kick the cold out and start over next week?

I'd go with what you feel able to Millenium.

Do you feel like you could cope with a FD today honestly? If not then maybe aim for a healthy mini (sub 1000 cals) and back to it once you are better.

Good luck either way

Morning everyone!

I’m fasting today too Darcy.

My target today is to drink more water as I’ve let this slide.

FD here too mrd, day 2 of b2b hope you manage okay but don't worry too much if you have to postpone until asthma is back under control.

millennium hope you are feeling better soon, I second what mrd says and just see how you go on, maybe a mini-fd is better suited for today? or postpone it until you feel better.

Good luck everyone

millennium if you’re fainting you shouldn’t be fasting, I don’t think. Wait till you’re better.

I’ve never done a b2b 43. Are they awful? I’m trying to plan what to do next week. I normally fast tues and thurs but can’t this tues (or the Monday before). Fridays aren’t my ideal days. I could do Wednesday/Thursday or maybe just cut my losses and do a FD Wednesday and a mini on Thursday. Not sure yet.