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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

968 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/05/2019 10:15

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/05/2019 19:24

Well done, blodyn

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/05/2019 19:29

Mship To help avoid the need for mfp, keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

NHS alcohol limits, NEVER snack / graze between meals,
sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal, lots of water & veg, cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks

Once you are near goal, we can devise a maintenance plan that suits your individual needs

  • we all need a plan, because

If you return to your old WOE, you'll return to your old weight & waist

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 14/05/2019 19:48

Well done mrd and blody and thanks for the birthday wishes mrd Smile

I'm postponing today's fd as an impromptu birthday visit from a friend led to sharing a bottle of fizz in the garden sunshine.... so plan is now Thurs / Fri b2b. I do love the flexibility of this WOL (if not the thought of a b2b!)

Welcome back mship I remember your username. Good luck with it and just take it 1 day at a time, you'll soon be back in the swing of things.

CupOhTea · 14/05/2019 20:05

Oh balls, I just wrote a big message and it wouldn't post.

Anywho, may I please join you?

I'll be brief this time (Hmm at phone) I'm planning on doing ADF, starting tomorrow. I have gained a fair bit recently, since I stopped bfing, I've lost some of it and would like to lose some more.

HLBug · 14/05/2019 22:06

Hello cup and welcome.

Hello also to mship, I too am returning into the fold after a bit of a maintenance mishap Blush

Successful FD for me, closing on about 550 calories. Skinny latte mid morning then nothing but water until a chicken stir fry for dinner. Genuinely so busy today I had no time to eat anything anyway.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 14/05/2019 22:18

Welcome cup and good luck

Well done bug, busy days are the best days for an fd Smile

TheMShip · 15/05/2019 07:33

Thank you everyone, I feel like I can do this. I have a cold, due my period, and will be at a work event all day, but them's the breaks. Have to start somewhere.

My TDEE is apparently 2011, which seems ridiculously high. I'm at 15st3 today. I'd like very much to get to 14st7 by the start of July, when I turn 40 and will be on holiday. I think 10lb in 7 weeks is possible, I'm pretty sure about 3lb is my usual pre period bloat anyway.

CupOhTea · 15/05/2019 07:53

Morning and thank you bug and ship for the welcome Smile.

It's FD for me. Starting the day with a big glass of water and a black tea. I had a big meal (too big Blush) lat night, so I am not hungry, which is handy!

Planning to split my calories into a late lunch and late dinner, as I have a yoga class later and want to eat before and after.

Is anyone else on a FD? Good luck for all the FD and NFDs.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/05/2019 08:14

Happy birthday, 43 💐

Well done on your FD, bug
sounds a nice easy one, with a good plan

Welcome, cup 🙂
and good luck on your 1st FD

tips:

  • keep drinking water all day - Mosely recommends against flavoured fizzy drinks
    tea & coffee are ok too, preferably without sugar / sweetener

  • glug a teap Marmite (10 cals) from the jar, to avoid headaches and weakness while your body adapts to fasting
    Marmite replenishes lost salt & minerals with the lower food

  • Base FD meals on protein with lots of veg.
    Easiest to have 1-2 meals. No snacks between

  • No allowance on FDs for exercise calories

  • On NFDs, keep to the No snacks rule, also NHS alcohol limits

mship You'll soon be back in the fasting swing
You know you can do this

With your TDEE, it makes it much easier to keep the NFDs as "maintenance days" - especially if you return to the 5:2 healthy habits
So, stay focused and you will probably lose at a pretty good rate, the first few weeks at least
Your 40th bday is handy motivation Smile

OP posts:
Clutterfreeintraining · 15/05/2019 08:30

Morning!
Happy birthday, 43 Flowers
Welcome to the newbies/rejoiners Smile
FD for me and I'm hungry already Hmm I'm heading out shortly and won't have access to food so should be able to get through most of the day without having to apply much self-control - which is good because I don't have very much!!
Good luck Wednesday fasters Smile

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 15/05/2019 09:44

thanks bcf and clutter

Stay strong clutter hopefully the day will fly by and it'll be over before you know it

Good luck weds fasters Smile

WeldMeDaphne · 15/05/2019 09:59

6lbs off for my first week! Still haven’t quite worked out where I’m going to fast this week. I’m so pleased with that result that I want to make a good go of it!

TheMShip · 15/05/2019 10:01

43 I'm hungry too. I had a boiled egg and tea for mini breakfast, and I've brought a water bottle for the conference. The hunger will pass in a little while. I'm actually slightly enjoying the feeling, as I need to relearn differentiating between physical need hunger and emotional/stress desire to eat.

Earslaps · 15/05/2019 10:48

Happy Birthday 43! Flowers Have a truly fantastic day.

Yesterday's fast was so so. Was really easy until about 6pm, when I started feeling really headachey from my cold. Had to rush cooking dinner due to Cubs night, then I really didn't like some of it (colds always mess up my taste buds), so I had a very small handful of almonds instead of the fish and spent the evening very grumpy!

Feeling brighter today, still a bit coldy but not too bad. Had a berry and chia seed pot for breakfast, then going to hang on until lunch and have smoked mackerel on rye bread with avocado and salad, plus a cinnamon bun (colds need carbs Grin).

Will have to see if I can manage a FD tomorrow if I'm still coldy, might just leave it and focus on being better ready to smash my Friday fit day (exercise class and football!).

Good luck Wednesday fasters.

milleniumhandandprawn · 15/05/2019 10:58

Morning all!
Happy birthday 43!

Have started off with an FD today, but have just found out I've got a client in so will be drinking at lunchtime 🤦‍♀️

Guess fast day will move to tomorrow now! Will just be as good as possible today. Thank goodness for flexibility!

Roussillon849 · 15/05/2019 11:20

Hello! Can I please have some advice? I'm meeting a friend in our lunch break and the weather is lovely, so we are going to sit in the sun and there will be an ice cream van next to us. I know I won't be strong enough to resist the temptation so I am going to make an exception and eat a small ice cream, and try and compensate as much as I can for the rest of the day.

Does anyone know what is the lowest calorie thing you can have from a Mr Whippy van? Thanks.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/05/2019 11:50

Congratulations on your SV, daphne
Excellent start
Now you know it works !

Don't worry about it, Roussilon
No problem having an ice cream treat on an NFD - 5:2 deliberately allows a normal social life, with sensible amounts of treats

If it's an FD, best to move the FD so you can enjoy being with your friend, without counting calories

If you want to watch your calories, then have an ice cream cone without any sprinkles or flake
A Mr Whippy small ice + cone is listed as only 65 cals, medium is 80 cals - these are small treats, so don't worry about compensating for these
A big cone is 180 cals, so medium looks a sensible compromise

Enjoy Smile

OP posts:
Roussillon849 · 15/05/2019 12:03

Thank you BigChocFrenzy! So helpful. I have to fast today as I have guests arriving tomorrow till Monday (I should have explained that), but it looks like I can squeeze in (ahem) a small Mr Whippy and still stay within at least 800 calories. Not ideal but a good compromise.

Pineappleunder · 15/05/2019 12:06

Hi everyone.
Second fast day here.
My NFD in between have gone pretty well although I went to a friend's for a few gins last night, no more booze for the week should keep me within NHS alcohol limits. Also didn't drink enough to be hungover today because I knew a fast would be difficult with a hangover- this is definitely progress.
It's a really lovely sunny day here and usually I would have a rosé on the balcony later.
When dieting I would usually swap this for a sugar- free sirop (squash) and fizzy water. I know fizzy drinks aren't recommended but would this be such a terrible 'treat?'
Talking of treats, enjoy your ice cream @Roussilon !

TheMShip · 15/05/2019 13:22

Taking a few minutes out from networking (ugh) at conference to jot down my mini-meal in MFP. Despite the massive buffet on offer, I stuck to a small piece of grilled fish and a chickpea & veg salad. Couldn't weigh it obvs, but estimated 350kcal. It was surprisingly satisfying. I've been slugging back the water trying to drown my cold virus, and I think that is helping too.

I like the sound of your Friday fit day, Ears - is that a regular thing?

BigChocFrenzy · 15/05/2019 16:37

Well done Mship on coping with networking ( 🤮 ) and finding something reasonable to eat

pineapple Try to spread out your units over the NFDs, instead of saving them up
NHs alcohol limits are 2 units per day - about 1 x 175 ml glass wine - not just the 14 units weekly

Mosely recommends against sweeteners, because longterm they change the gut flora, so that your body increases fat storage
However, NHS daily alcohol limits is a much more important rule, so if you have to choose, I'd work on that first

Fizzy water with ice and a slice of fruit in a pretty glass is very refreshing
On NFDs, try half and half of fizzy water with either red grape or apple juice

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 15/05/2019 19:42

Evening all

Been at a conference all day today and nearly managed an impromptu B2B because of it! Didn't eat a thing apart from tea / water until nearly 4pm. MShip - you weren't in coventry were you?!

43 - Happy Birthday!

Welcome to all newbies and well done to all on FDs etc

harriethoyle · 15/05/2019 21:16

Happy birthday lovely @fortythree!

Just checking in for day 2 of a b2b - have been so busy with work its whipped past!! Hope everyone is doing well and keeping strong 👊

TheMShip · 15/05/2019 21:38

Nope Darcy, Scotland. Last year this conference ran out of food, I was really hoping it wouldn't be an involuntary full fast day! I'm doing fine on the mini, closed out at 921 and going to bed shortly.

HLBug · 15/05/2019 22:10

Inspired by darcy and mship - I'm away for work from tomorrow to Sunday (!) and I need to make sure I don't get carried away. Will definitely try and skip breakfast, and maybe even go for OMAD if I can. Hmm. Not ideal, but plenty of tricks up my sleeve so fingers crossed.

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