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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 84: Exercise hack - Fartlek = interval training with non-regular intervals; Fartleg = lie sideways watching TV and gently raise a leg to break wind

973 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 01/03/2019 02:54

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Ithinkyourewonderful · 30/04/2019 19:47

Well done ernie and surprised Star alltalk I haven't had an easy time with FDs either and suspect it may be a blood sugar thing for me.

Tuesday FD finished for me. I had some left over steamed veggies, a bit of soup and 3 small meatballs for lunch and some chicken and salad for dinner. Tea and coffee and lots of water in between. Managed to resist the snacking! It was all homemade so not sure on the calories, but probably more like 600 today, which is more realistic for me. Pleased the day is finished. A cup of herbal tea and kitchen is closed! Brew

harriethoyle · 30/04/2019 20:24

Kitchen is closed at 709 and a pint of water. Already dreaming of breakfast toast and honey! Grin

harriethoyle · 30/04/2019 20:26

Well done @ernie and @alltalk Wine

erniewise · 30/04/2019 21:29

Hi again...major carb craving tonight as I made the kids' lunches, but resisted. Ate a strawberry and 3 or 4 raspberries. Hadn't had any fruit all day so hopefully that small amount won't make a difference?
I also saw Bovril and Marmite mentioned in a few threads - can I drink Bovril and not count it then? That would be a lifesaver! And I ate half a tsp of marmite just now as I was a bit shaky and can't take any more liquid! Is that ok and also not breaking the fast? It helped curb the craving so I hope so!
Finally on the drinks front, are fruit teas (e.g. raspberry and cranberry) allowed as I only see herbal/green/black in the book. Would help satisfy a sweet craving.
Thanks all for the support and help.

harriethoyle · 30/04/2019 21:31

@ernie I never count fruit trees and I very much doubt a couple of rasps will derail your FD although I'm not a low carber...

BigChocFrenzy · 01/05/2019 00:14

Well done, harriet, alltalk

Ernie As mentioned, Fast800 has stricter rules than 5:2, but it does allow fruit in moderation

Berries and low-sugar fruit like apples are fine on Fast800 during the eating window
Just keep to no more than 2 portions per day

Also, count the calories, but those few berries today were probably only about 20 cals,
so if you were around 800 before, they won't matter

A Bovril cube or a teasp Marmite is only 10 calories

No food on Fast800 or an FD is "Free", but lots of choices are low calorie, especially veg, so you can fit them easily into the eating window.

If you are trying to do 16:8, i.e. only an 8-hour eating window, then that's probably too tough for you, so I suggest you move to a 12-hour one, e.g. eat between 8am - 8 pm

During the Fast800 extended overnight fast of 12 hours, e.g. 8pm to 8am,
try to avoid consuming any calories, especially sugary ones - so no fruit then

Is it during this period that you were worried about fruit tea, Bovril ?

If so, teabags with herbal or fruit infusions, e.g. Twinings strawberry etc, are fine as these are only about 4 calories per cup and don't affect the overnight fast

However, don't add sugar, milk or sweetener

Also, avoid any readymade / can / bottled tea, because this usually has hidden sugar / sweeteners & other junk added

You could also have Marmite or Bovril during the 12-hour overnight fast

OP posts:
erniewise · 01/05/2019 06:55

Thanks (again) Choc. Yes, I was wondering about these things during the fasting window. I had my dinner at 6pm and won't be having breakfast until about 9 or 9.30, so even if I broke the fast by having a couple of berries at 8pm, I've still got more than 12 hour fast. I always have my dinner about 6pm during the week, and have moved my breakfast out from 7am (and a second breakfast snack at 10am!) to 9 or 10 depending on morning meetings. Obv cut out any treats with a cuppa at night as well. Good to know I can have low cal fruit tea and bovril to curb cravings.

EssentialHummus · 01/05/2019 07:59

Morning everyone, signing in for a Wednesday fast. Who's with me?

Laniakea · 01/05/2019 10:05

me! Just had some blueberries & Greek yogurt & a coffee (200 total), not sure what I'll eat later :)

BigChocFrenzy · 01/05/2019 10:32

Well done on your FD, wonderful and resisting snacking

ernie Next time, what can help more than a few late berries: have 3-4 unflavoured nuts (salted is ok), as they will help stabilise blood sugar.

Also, drink water and clean your teeth as soon as you have finished eating - the fresh mouth taste & feel helps reduce the wish to nibble

Good luck, Hummus, Lania

Happy May Day, everyone Smile
it's a sunny public holiday here, so I'm off to the gym to lift, then a long Rhine walk

OP posts:
MaudBaileysGreenTurban · 01/05/2019 11:05

Morning all - fasting today so getting stuck into the black coffee Grin what a bonus to find I actually quite like it!

Good luck essential and all today's FDers

Earslaps · 01/05/2019 12:09

Another Wednesday faster here! Just green tea and a 5km run for me so far today. Planning on sticking to fluids until dinner time, then maybe some soy bean spaghetti (high protein and fibre), with some sauteed onions, butternut squash and a little bacon for dinner (making use of what I have in the fridge to use up).

Was DS's birthday yesterday, so plenty of cake plus a meal out. I stepped on the scales this morning (I weigh when I remember and don't let little fluctuations stress me out) expecting to have gone up a bit after yesterday and a big eating weekend and I'm actually nice and low. Will be interesting to see where I am after this fast!

BigChocFrenzy · 01/05/2019 17:03

Good luck, Maud, earslaps

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 01/05/2019 18:48

Not caught up on the thread today but just checking in with weds fd, struggled a bit today and I'm on about 610 but kitchen closed now!! Hope everyone fasting today is managing well Smile

EssentialHummus · 01/05/2019 20:20

Ah, a bank holiday in the sun sounds fab bigchoc!

Well done 43. Hope you're there maud and ears.

Kitchen closed here - ready meal and pile of broccoli at lunchtime, biscuit, rice cake, and 3/4 coffees with very little milk. I'm not sure of calories but 500ish I think. May do a b2b tomorrow - I'm plateauing and frustrated! Holiday in 2 weeks and I'd like to be at target or at least consistently under 72kg, where I'm currently hovering. To be fair though, the last few weeks have been one disruption after another and I'm very much a routine type person (as evidenced by my identical FD meals!), so I think that has contributed.

MaudBaileysGreenTurban · 01/05/2019 21:38

In bed with a book after a successful FD, I think. Nothing all day except black coffee and water - despite the fact that my lovely office buddy brought in a huuuuge chocolate cake and then another colleague was sharing out Belgian chocs in the afternoon! I resisted all of it - oddly easy today actually which was nice. Feel very proud of myself even so Wink

Then dinner was a beef stir fry - I didn't really enjoy it though so left some. Not hungry at all. Weird.

Working from home tomorrow though, so might well make up for today's good behaviour!

Hope everyone had a good day.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/05/2019 21:49

Well done, 43, hummus, Maud
especially for persisting on a tough day, 43
and resisting choc goodies maud

At least you are maintaining, hummus
Disruption has probably increased your average NFD calorie / sugar / alcohol total

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 01/05/2019 21:50

How did today go, earslaps, ernie ?

OP posts:
erniewise · 01/05/2019 22:46

Hi Bigchoc, I survived today though I was very grumpy! Had a busy and stressful work day and could have murdered some carbs and sugar but I know it's a slippery slope so have resisted. I've been rereading bits of the book and have decided to have porridge tomorrow - well overnight oats actually as I know that I get hungry very quickly after cooked porridge. 30g with almond milk and mixed berries (it'll be the only fruit for the day). Will see how it impacts my appetite. My weight has already gone down by 4lbs according to the scales (water perhaps but still 4lb!!) and my daughter told me I look glowing! I think I look wretched but nice to hear anyway.

So, tell me when this gets easier?? Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 02/05/2019 00:07

Well done, ernie
People report the first week on Fast800 is the toughest, after that most folk adapt

Well done too on your SV and compliments NSV
Try not to weigh more than weekly, if you get emotional about scales

OP posts:
greenelephantscarf · 02/05/2019 07:08

fell off the fasting wagon - work is manic and we moved house which was stressful. plus easter didn't help.

fasting today, trying to get back into a rhythm.
doesn't help that we moved to forreign and need to try lots of new foods. Grin

erniewise · 02/05/2019 07:51

Morning all, hope you find your fasting mojo greenelephant!

Back with more questions (soz!):
Is cottage cheese ok on Fast800? No mention in the book but it's high protein, low carb but also fat free so not sure.
I presume rice cakes are a big no as they are refined white carbs? crosses fingers she's wrong
Finally, I've bought some turkey steaks, God knows because I don't particularly like them, so has anyone got any nice recipes (I fear it will be stir fry otherwise).
Bye for now and have a good day everyone!

greenelephantscarf · 02/05/2019 08:09

turkey steaks: marinade with 1tablespoon olive oil, 1tbs balsamic vinegar, a little oregano, garlic, salt

put into an oven proof dish marinade &all . sprinkle on some brown sugar. add a little lemon juice and stock and bake at 200 for about 30 min (depending on thickness of meat shorter or longer)

EssentialHummus · 02/05/2019 08:19

Good luck today green. I'm fasting too.

ernie I tend to use a tiny amount of oil and then slather it in masala spices/BBQ spices and onto a hot frying pan. Not sure if that's a go-er on Fast 800? Otherwise stir fries all the way, with lots of veg to fill you up.

Disruption has probably increased your average NFD calorie / sugar / alcohol total I think so bigchoc. This festival that I was involved in meant more alcohol than I'm used to (I rarely drink in normal life, but would join others for prosecco etc), plus I was handling catering which meant enormous quantities of crisps, cheese, olives, bread literally in my kitchen and prepped by me. Add to that a few weeks where I couldn't do my usual Mon/Tues b2b... it's a good lesson to set things out with a certain amount of flexibility for maintenance.

alltalknobaby · 02/05/2019 08:31

Good luck all Thursday fasters!

I usually have a glass of wine on a Thursday evening so Thursday is a good day for me to fast. Tea and coffee this morning, maybe a Bovril if I'm struggling, then a ready meal for lunch and fruit, natural yoghurt and a boiled egg at about 5pm.

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