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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2018 11:09

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 02/07/2018 21:00

Ooo how did you make them eagereyes?

openupmyeagereyes · 02/07/2018 21:05

Half a cup each of oats and almond milk. Quarter cup of Greek yogurt and a tablespoon of chia seeds. In the morning I’ll add banana and almond butter probably. It’s supposed to be a single serving but I usually can’t eat it all.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/07/2018 21:06

bug My gym has no a/c whatsoever
and summers are endless 30C+
Clearly made of sterner stuff, these Germans.

I jog outside early, before the heat gets up, but evening gym classes are sweat fests.
I take frequent breaks, because my endurance is rubbish in this oppressive heat

OP posts:
SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 02/07/2018 21:10

Thanks for the tips re: my holiday prep bigchoc will get on the case.

Am deffo back in the game today! Kitchen closed at 8pm on 500 Smile

Had tea/ coffee this morning then made a huge jug of cucumber infused water which I kept in the fridge and drank throughout the day - so much easier in this hot weather not to eat!

Lunch was a bit of tuna with green salad and capers.

Followed by a delicious Vietnamese Pho - hot soup - for dinner - will share the recipe on the recipe thread it was yummy & didn't feel like a fast day meal at all!

Hope everyone's had a good day. Planning another swim tomorrow - it's so refreshing & puts me in a much better mood Grin

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 02/07/2018 21:11

Sounds delicious eagereyes - am going to make some now thanks Smile

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 02/07/2018 21:18

Well done everyone and wow bug no air con Shock

Well under tdee today, feel like I've eaten loads though and didn't need anything else just for the sake of it so I'm banking them

Nfd tomorrow and I might have a few beers watching the football

badger82 · 02/07/2018 21:21

Yes Borris I'm the same. It's the NFDs that are hard for me

HLBug · 02/07/2018 22:14

It was like bikram zumba. A lot of water had to be consumed...which my poor pelvic floor really did not cope with Sad I had thought that loosing weight would help with my rubbish pelvic floor but it seems not - DS really did officially break me good and proper. Sniff. Things were so bad tonight I nipped into Tesco on the way home to get some Tena pants for next week. Double sniff. For anyone with similar issues I'll report back on their usefulness next time I go to gym.

HLBug · 02/07/2018 22:14

FD for me tomorrow btw.

calzone · 02/07/2018 22:30

I fasted today.

I’m still a food machine on NFD so going to try harder tomorrow. 3 meals and no snacks.

B.....cereal and yoghurt and fruit
L....vegetable pasta
D....steak and salad

FriendlyGhost · 02/07/2018 23:05

FD over. Kitchen closed at somewhere between 500 and 600 calories. I wasn’t particularly hungry during the day but I was more hungry after eating. Dinner was a big tofu stir fry with most of the calories from vegetables so I think I need to up the protein for my next FD dinner. I’m looking forward to a NFD tomorrow and I am determined to be strict with the no snacking rule.

Iamblossom · 03/07/2018 06:29

hlbug hot Zumba, could become "a thing"! If I had a pelvic water issue in a class I don't think anyone would notice as I sweat so much!

Yes borris on nfds I graze terribly. Must stop this.

Well done crash!

openup (I also sing the song when I read your name in my head) those oats sound good but very filling as you say! I make porridge every morning at the moment for poor ds1 and his new brace face.

smiled I am really enjoying swimming at the moment, have looked up some 1 mile coaches session swim workouts online, always feel amazing afterwards.

Scales show 8 stone 8 this morning so bottom end of my happy weight yay! 🎺. Won't go mad today or tomorrow, have two busy work days which will help (no more lolling in the garden for me Sad) and can then relax for rest of the week.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2018 07:20

Well done on your SV, crash
That's motivating for a sensible weekend, to keep those 2lb from ever finding you again.

Borris, badger On NFDs, try skipping breakfast and see if that helps
Alternatively, have eggs, which seem the most filling, low GI breakfast

Well done on your FD, smiled, calzone, ghost

bug Sadly, if your pelvic floor is nadgered, then weight loss is usually not enough on its own
Doing the Clench a few times daily will help if the problem lies with weak muscles, but not if something is bust

Congrats on SV, bottom end of Happy Weight Range, blossom
How is your poor toe ?

Good luck, Tuesday fasters and drink lots of water in this heat
Have a teasp Marmite too, to replenish lost salt & minerals

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 03/07/2018 08:02

Snail congratulations on reaching maintenance. It’s a big step. It felt strange to me as loosing weight became a huge part of my life for so long it was a weird feeling. What are you planning 6:1 or carry on with 5:2 and increase TDEE and see how you go for a bit?

Noidea - that’s such bad luck with TOTM but congratulations on your SV of getting into the 12s that’s fantastic. I would ignore this weeks weigh in and look forward to next Monday’s.

Hoochy - I hope you had a lovely holiday. A good poop and a good FD will see that small gain gone again.

Borris - I do hope your B2B is going well. Definitely find less hungry on FDs.

Pop - BBQ is really doable, I find prawns great on the bbq with some chilli flakes chucked on super low cals and yummy too.

Cake - That is a fantastic NSV for wearing your bikini. That really is a huge step.

Bug - OMG no air con that’s scandalous, hope it wasn’t too hot.

CrashBump - well done on nailing your FD.

Blossom- fantastic news on your happy weight. You are nailing this!

I’m putting it down that I’m doing a run today, so I now have to as it’s written down. Whatever happened to my knee seems to have cleared up but I really struggle with this heat so plan is to do it more frequently but less miles each time.

Hope everyone has a great day and good luck to the fasters & B2Bers

Iamblossom · 03/07/2018 08:38

Thanks bcf - toe is fine now because (tmi alert) the nail has now completely come off. Got chiropodist this afternoon.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2018 08:52

My birthday today !
Yikes, I'm 62 - at what age is one supposed to feel grown up ? Hmm Grin

I'm off now for my morning jog, before the sun starts scorching even the air.
This evening, I'll do Killer Abs class plus a few free weights sets at the (no a/c !) gym

In between, I will enjoy an orgy of Kindle scifi,
enlivened by Mediteranean savoury Tarte flambé & salad, plus home-made ice cream at my local Konditorei
Bliss Grin
See ya later ……

OP posts:
openupmyeagereyes · 03/07/2018 09:36

Happy birthday BigChocFrenzy. I hope you have a wonderful day Cake Wine

badger82 · 03/07/2018 10:03

Happy birthday BCF!!
Your day sounds perfect

I'm trying my first B2B today. Planning to hold out until dinner time for my 650 cals. Feeling good so far!

Happy Tuesday fasters!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 03/07/2018 10:24

Happy birthday to you BCF Cake Flowers hope you have a wonderful day

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 03/07/2018 11:34

Just checking in... I am still eating way too much sugar! Confused yesterday and Sunday were not great. So I'm taking it easy, because I want to retrain my taste buds - and brain - but I feel like right now is not the time. So instead I have now and holiday time to learn and plan and feel ready IYSWIM.

Anyway Bug if you think there is a real issue with your pelvic floor then please try and get a referral to OBGYN. Otherwise... if it's possibly a weak muscle issue I hope the following helps:

Here (Germany) post birth every mother is entitled to a "get back in shape" course post baby. It is designed to help close your abdominal muscles up and strengthen your pelvic floor.

So, what the trainer at my course did... (she was bloody brilliant, in a good but scary way) she explained that there are three sets of muscles that you want to work on. At the front where you wee. At the back where you poo. And then there is a figure of 8 that sort of lies over those, that most women are aware of and can easily clench this muscle.

Standing up eyes closed pelvis tilted slightly forward and knees soft. (Putting your hands on your pelvis at the front can help)
First concentrate on the wee muscles at the front and breath out and tighten.
Next the same with the bum muscles.
Then the figure 8.
Then all three.
Keep repeating that and just do some slow deep breathing and clenching for a minute or so every day. You should find you can hold the muscles harder and longer over time. But when you start it can be difficult to visualise and "find" each muscle.

I try and do this regularly... if I haven't then a cold will remind me that I need to do more training Wink and that usually helps.

Hope that makes sense and is useful, and sorry for the essay!!

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 03/07/2018 11:35

And BCF alles gute zum Geburtstag!! I hope you have a lovely day Thanks

HonkyWonkWoman · 03/07/2018 11:44

Thanks for that NoUnderpants I'm sure you've got us all Clenching like mad. 😂

Happy Birthday BCF and pah to 62! I'm sure you could give some twenty year olds a run for their money.
Have a lovely day! The Tarte Flambe sounds yummy and enjoy the ice cream!

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 03/07/2018 11:52

Honky yeah... sorry about that... on the other hand... it's good for everyone!! Grin
It is so annoying that every new cold is a new reminder to do some pelvic floor exercises!!

plus3 · 03/07/2018 11:54

Happy Birthday to you BCF !

FD today & I am not in the zone at all. Might be a hormonal crash but feel so defeatist...haven’t eaten anything yet but am obsessing about food.
Feel flabby yet can’t motivate myself to actually do any kind of exercise.

Don’t know what to do with myself today

HonkyWonkWoman · 03/07/2018 12:17

No need to be sorry NoUnderpants, I am in dire need of some Clenching! 😂
Will now practise the correct way!

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