5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

What is key: Averaging within TDEE for the 5 NFDs ?

Wow well done cake that’s fantastic.

Bloody hell dove that’s flew off you. Huge congratulations. You won’t be in the 9s for much longer.

Snail - that’s fantastic news about your maintenance. Also wow wow wow all inclusive and a 1lb on that is fantastic.
And good luck for your half marathon training. I’m hoping next year I may be up for one but I need to look at cut off times as I’m so slow.

Plus - keep ploughing through you may be at what I would call your”sticky weight” each stone bracket I was having a bit of a plateau at the same point. Good luck for next week.

NewYork - oh that’s really disappointing. See what next week brings as maybe your body needs to catch up. Have you taken measurements as you may have lost inches?

Boys - I think that’s wise not to weigh in tomorrow as TOTM really does play havoc.

I’m throwing in a second FD as Thursday was calorific for me. It was a planned day and I knew I would probably have to take a 2nd FD but that’s the beauty of this it’s so flexible and if things crop up it can easily be undone.

Have a great weekend everyone

If so, then that is the rate of loss for you at the moment.
If you still have quite a bit to lose, it can just be a temporary slowdown

boys definitely avoid the scales around totm
The hormonal changes cause temporary retention of lbs of water - but keep drinking water to help flush it out.

If you can resist the totm munchies, then the FD after the end of totm will zap the bloat and you may even see a scales whoosh later

Maz Your Shred !

I am 1 lb away from BMI of 25 but have spent most of my adult life between 11st - 11.10 without thinking too much about diet or exercise.

I dropped to 9.10st but was ill - then got diagnosed with Ulcerative Colitis, had steroids got better & fatter!!!

The worse thing was that I liked being thinner, just not how I got there

So doing this in a healthy, positive way is really important to me.

I will accept that it might be slow & keep positive

I’ll admit that chicken, yogurt and berries is an unusual combo. I’m trying to nourish my body by listening to what it needs (it used to shout BISCUITS after every meal!).

Thought I’d shake it up a bit with 30 Day Yoga instead today (much less likely that DD will sustain an injury). DH is home for the weekend, so went for a run and finished with some weights. In so motivated to eat well when I’ve exercised.

Wow snail! Well done you. You should be very proud of yourself. It was an all inclusive holiday that started my current gain. Sigh.

plus After all your body has been through, now at BMI 25, your rate of loss is gentle and safe.
You are losing the right way, healthily

Maz Your bod now shouts SHRED (and your DD ducks !)

quacking and maz It's funny, I was worried about the all inclusive thing and putting on weight, but when I got there I realised that the reason all inclusives exist and still make money is because most of the food is disgusting which meant I didn't want to eat it. We ended up eating out for four nights at a local taverna, so that was lovely fresh grilled fish and Greek salad. For breakfast and lunch, I just found the bits of food at the hotel which weren't slurry - Greek yogurt, fruit, fresh bread, feta cheese, salad bits. Even the free booze was awful, so again I limited myself to a couple of glasses of nice wine every now and again. On the plus side, we were out there for a wedding which was absolutely wonderful, and I very much enjoyed swanning around in my new bikini and not feeling lumpy! Also did loads and loads of swimming and cycling which probably helped.

So.... now I know why scales showed a 1lb gain this morning, totm has arrived 5 days early, I am always 28 days so it's a bit disconcerting but welcomed as I'm off to London Thursday and was annoyed I was going to have totm for our wee break away so cheers mother nature

I'm so glad all that totm business is 11 years behind me
I can hardly remember it now, thankfully blanked from memory
What was god thinking of, when she dumped biology on us

That's a Proud Bikini NSV, snail !

snail
I just read your description of all inclusive to DH - he laughed.
Well done on enjoying wearing a bikini.
its the feel good moments that make it all worth it

Hello to familiar and new names! Am back again for advice please.

Been maintaining weight this past few months, BMI sitting in the middle of 'healthy'. Seldom snack anymore. But confessing to feeding my sugar fix by sometimes substituting meals (i.e. lunch) for bags of donuts/flapjack/cheap sweets. I really don't know how my weight has stayed the same to be honest. As penance though, my waist has increased by 4cm. Still below 50:50 but I really don't want to go there again.

The past few days i've started to make changes. Now following BC's previous advice of sugary treats only 2 days a week and only a reasonable portion size.

As carbs are my downfall, I've also substituted lunch for low carb options - high protein high fat, so my carbs are limited to a normal evening meal.

Am missing bread though. When not eating donuts instead, a sandwich was my staple go-to lunch. Am I clutching at straws that a very low carb lunch will make ANY difference at all to my waist loss? Am I ditching the bread unnecessarily?

Welcome back, granny
You've done well with stopping snacks, That's a really good achievement
Now let's zap that sugar habit

Expanding waist but stable weight is classic for over-indulging in added sugar and / or alcohol by swapping calories.

Very broad generalisations:

• The number of calories is the main factor in determining your total weight
• The type of calories, at around TDEE, in particular the amount of junk, determines your % bodyfat, i.e. the type of bod at that weight.

My advice:

• Bread: White bread especially can spike cravings, but so can even wholegrain for some people.

Try switching to 100% rye or pumpernickel bread, i.e. ingredients label should not contain wheat.

This works for many who can't handle processed wheat.
The bread is very dense and filling, so you won't want much per portion.

My pix show the bread I usually eat; normally 1 slice for an open sandwich, big filling on top, does me ok.

Also ..

• Knock on the head that habit of swapping meals for sugary crap.
  You know it just goes straight on your waist.
  Yes, you probably could eat that way in your teens & 20s, maybe right up to menopause.
  But not now. Me too

• Keep 2:5ing the sugary crap (one sensible portion only on 2 NFDs)
  Try swapping to an apple / pear / berries / melon small slice
  Or a full-fat Greek yoghurt with berries, flaked almonds & cinammon

• Cut out sweet fizzy drinks, even diet ones.
  Artificial sweeteners can still spike insulin. Also, they alter the gut flora, to increase bodyfat.

• Also cut out white rice, sugary breakfast cereals, fruit juice - all too high sugar

• For starchy carbs, cut out mash & fried chips, but boiled is OK
  Move to brown / red rice, quinoa
  Resistant starch ==> Have COLD carbs, e.g. potato / pasta salad, or reheated potato, rice etc because cooling reduces the insulin impact.

• Boost beans, peas, lentils - try to have every day, because they are proven to help control blood sugar

• When the weather is more reasonable, try HIIT, as this helps problems of inculin metabolism which cause fat storage around the middle.
  If you hate this / have little time, do theFat Blasts, which just take a few minutes at home 3-5 times per week, see 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OP

I adore bread and can never give it up
but I only eat home made now as its much nicer
and as its a faff that limits the amount

Talkin me too - lots of bread really doesn’t love me though... Toasted sourdough (with poached eggs) is my idea of heaven!

BCF I have just had a look at your exercise thread - amazing. Michael Mosley should have you on commission!

Glad you liked it, plus I use a lot of different sources for the exercise OP, to try to explain what different exercise types do to your body and in particular what is important for different aspects of health.

As exercise thread Nr 3 has had 930 posts for ages, I was just about to post a new exercise thread Nr 4
... but my finger twitched and iPad deleted the entire looong OP.
!
So I have to update an earlier version first, with the new videos and studies

Phew
Weather report says heatwave will break on Friday and should stay under 30C, for at least the following 2 weeks
BUT
there will be a final blast at 40C on 1 or 2 days before that

Thanks BC.

Yes, tried switching to hovis wholemeal but found it incredibly sweet, so for the time being ditched bread. I'll have a look out for rye bread.

Swapping meals - out.

Fizzy drinks - can't stand them, never have! Not keen on fruit juice either. Black coffee, black tea or tap water generally. Although have just bought some miso paste to make into a hot drink to cut down on coffee. Red wine on 2:5.

Sugary desserts 2:5 as part of a meal - doable.

White rice - hmm - going to have to cook and leave to go cold. How cold is cold? Same day or next day? I seem to recall rice which isn't properly reheated can cause food poisoning. Sugary breakfast cereals - can do without - to be honest my OH buys them but they're just like unbaked flapjack so would count as a sugary snack. Snacks are out.

Starchy carbs - can't stand mash, chips are oven chips. Brown rice/red quinoa - resistant starch would describe my OH! I'm on my own with these.

Boosting beans, peas, lentils - will do.

Exercise is probably covered as I've upped it recently, although cut back drastically on running due to hot weather. Gym is air conditioned really well so am frequent visitor!

TP Plus3 - making a sour dough starter is on my list of things to do. Watch this space ..!

Morning...may I join you?

Am in need of motivation to lose 2 stone...am currently heaviest I’ve ever been 12.12 at 5’4.5’’ (the half makes a difference )

I did 5:2 a couple of years ago and lost almost a stone...the time has come where instead of spending my energy moaning about my lardiness I need to channel it into doing something about it...and being able to wear the mountain of clothes in the wardrobe!

I’ve started on my exercise bike again and will do that 4 times a week I think...I’m up to 30miles so it’s a good 1000cal burn

Also have a treadmill which I enjoy less but should mix it up really
Might dig out old Jillian Michaels shred DVD...

Snacking and grazing is my biggest problem so need to find a way of overcoming that

Just looked at tdee calculator and it came out at 2227...is that quite high? I was expecting it to be less than that...

Welcome, MrsJolly
You've done this before, so you know you can fast.

That's good about the exercise - yes, this heatwave is a bummer.
I recommend a nice nasty (?) video, so JM sounds perfect 2-3 times weekly

This time, when you get to goal - as I recommend to everyone - have a definite lifetime maintenance plan,
e.g. 5:2 healthy habits + 6:1 or daily 16:8 etc "because

"If you slip back into your old WOE, then you slip back to your old weight & waist

We've learned a lot on these threads since 5:2 first came out.
To avoid slowing down your loss, keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

NHS alcohol limits, no snacking / grazing, sensible about treats, lots of water & veg, cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks

imo, like most people, you need to first prioritise no snacking or grazing EVER

just quickly checking in.
did 5:2 plus low(ish) fat since beginning of may due to abnormal liver function blood test.
was healthy bmi, but failed the 'string test'.

anyway, finally had blood test last week, and my liver enzymes are at a happy healthy level.
will keep to one fast day a week, as it seems to work for me.

thanks for all your support!

That's fantastic blue very well done!