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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2018 11:09

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
BigChocFrenzy · 02/08/2018 07:17

Maz I normally move FDs, to enjoy a social event without having to refuse a treat
Otherwise, I suggest take your own food and plan 800 cals for the day - that would be fine after a decent FD1

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 02/08/2018 08:21

Morning everyone, NFD yesterday went to pot and I don't really know why (well I do kind of, its that totm is a week away and I get awful urges to eat shite!) is there anything that helps with hormonal eating?

Anyway, NFD today and I'm at work so hoping that I can come in just under tdee if I can but I'm not restricting calories too much as its FD tomorrow and I'll just be too hungry.

Hope everyone else has a good day...

user1471429975 · 02/08/2018 13:28

Hi I've been doing 5:2 for 4 weeks and have lost half a stone which I am really happy with. Has anyone else found that their appetite on non fasting days has changed ? I can't seem to tolerate rich foods such as cheese or red meat or bread all of which I loved before, they make me feel quite ill now

dovegrey18 · 02/08/2018 16:22

Afternoon all, hanging in there still... can't remember what dinner is though.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/08/2018 18:44

Welcome, user Smile and well done on your SV
Some people do find that fasting reduces either the desire or the tolerance for junk food / very large meals / alcohol

43 To avoid totm munchies,
try cutting out trigger foods for that time,
e.g. any sugary junk like cake, biscuits, sweets, ice cream, also crisps, deep-fried food, poppadoms and takeaways.

Keep the NHS alcohol limits to avoid impulsive eating, nibbling, snacks

  • and be even more strict than usual about NO snacking or grazing

Also cut out fruit juice and sugary breakfast cereals
Instead, boost beans, peas, lentils - have at least one of them every day - to help stabilise blood sugar
Full fat Greek yoghurt with berries, flaked almonds & cinammon can also help
Drink lots of water and avoid flavoured fizzy drinks, even diets ones

OP posts:
plus3 · 02/08/2018 19:22

Hi user my appetite has definitely changed - fuller quicker & quite happy not to eat all the time.

That said FD today & took DC to pizza express - I had the holey pizza with salad in the middle for 470 Cals but then ruined everything by eating a couple of pieces of calamari & 3 dough balls (with pesto) Shock

Is today doomed? I am sitting at 817 ... don't know whether to ditch the FD or just keep going?

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 02/08/2018 19:42

Thanks bcf for the great advice. . Even though I know it's coming every bloody 28 days it still catches me unaware sometimes and before I know it, it's too late! Also realised I will have torn for our London break next week, thanks mother nature Angry

plus could you just have mini fd (800-1000 cals) today and the same again tomorrow? Love calamari misses the point Grin

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 02/08/2018 19:43

Torn = totm!

plus3 · 02/08/2018 20:09

43 will a mini FD result in a massive loss tomorrow on the scales? GrinI was sort of hoping to hit my stone off tomorrow...

dovegrey18 · 02/08/2018 20:11

I would keep going plus. It's still a decent deficit and you could add another mini in this week if poss.

Finishing at approx 550 cals.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/08/2018 20:23

Good FD, dove]

I agree, plus do a b2b miniFD - and delay weighing until after, if you are really keen on a milestone.
Don't worry, the milestone will arrive sometime, even if it is next week.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/08/2018 20:26

Road Haulage Association says Time to Grow Up

A good call to action, covering the main issues.
They have been one of the few organisations to understand what no-deal, or even a hard Brexit will mean:

www.rha.uk.net/getmedia/c98d0219-fcf7-434e-b9cd-51f2ff0c316c/180730-Brexit-pull-your-finger-out-final.pdf.aspx

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/08/2018 20:27

Whoops, wrong thread.
Hopefully noone needs a lorry load of food even on NFDs !

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/08/2018 20:31

Anyone who finds it hard to stop eating junky carbs:

Are You Addicted to Carbs - take Mosely’s Quiz

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/08/2018 20:35

If your normal exercise routine has been wrecked by the heatwave,
go swimming if you can - laps, water aerobics, water polo …

A different type of training can be very effective and motivating

OP posts:
plus3 · 02/08/2018 20:53

Well done dove
BCF do the mini FD contribute anything towards the health benefits of fasting or is really just a way to reduce calories over a week?

plus3 · 02/08/2018 21:04

Have looked at MFP nutrition stats for last week - daily average 1,440. My current TDEE is 1800 ...so I think I am on the right track?

BigChocFrenzy · 02/08/2018 21:21

Plus Yes, miniFDs do have benefits above just calorie deficit.
Dr Jason Fung's book has research showin that even 70% TDEE activates the process of clearing out old damaged cells.
Obviously, the effect is stronger with an FD and even more so with a b2b, because FD2 starts off already fasted

However, this is dependent on reasonably sensible calories - junk & alcohol won't do.

This is why minFDs have exactly the same rules about what you eat and drink: no junk, no booze, try to include plenty of water & veg

If you have a sub-1000 day including junk and / or booze, ou just have the calorie deficit

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/08/2018 21:29

plus The NFDs are maintenance / recovery days
The FDs are for weight loss and also the health benefits.

If you are nailing the FDs (or miniFDs) it's fine to eat up to TDEE on NFD
and it makes the WOL more sustainable

  • in fact at least one NFD per week should be at TDEE, if you are on 5:2 more than a monh, to maximise metabolic rate.
Some folk also have 1-2 NFDs at the TDEE of your goal weight, if this is much less than current weight. This also helps them get usd to eating as they will need to at goal,

If you are really keen on the health benefits, then I would suggest doing 16:8 or 14:10 on most NFDs,
which also helps keep them within TDEE

Those who have a` lot to lose should recalculate TDEE after about every stone loss.

OP posts:
plus3 · 02/08/2018 21:42

That's really helpful - thanks BCF
Will have a look at my TDEE at the various weights I may achieve

Stircrazyschoolmum · 02/08/2018 22:01

Late check in from me.. managed second FD yest but had bright idea of using mfp for the first time in months and realised I’ve been underestimating all my calories. (Could this be how I’ve been gaining weight she wonders Hmm)

With that in mind I was tougher on myself today to claw back a few calories. But I’m another one with a picnic planned for tomorrow and friends staying overnight so it’s going to be a tough day to stay sensible. Argh! Confused

BigChocFrenzy · 02/08/2018 22:09

stircrazy mfp have given yo insights in what to change - many folk find it ia reality check

Enjoy your picnic and evening meal without worry or thoughts of caloris

  • just keep to the 5:2 healthy habits of NHS alcohol limits and no snacks - then make some changes after your friends have left
OP posts:
cakegoblin · 02/08/2018 22:33

Hi everyone! Checking in after our big holiday - made some healthy food choices but lots of booze and crisps/nuts, luckily according to scales this morning I haven't regained too much, only 1 or 2 lbs. Ready now to get back into the swing of it to lose this last stone. Have spent the 3 days since I got back kicking the sugar again so as to be ready for FD tomorrow. Tried one today but it turned into a mini at around 850cals due to some delicious chicken drumsticks the kids didn't want! Will catch up with the thread tomorrow, is anyone else Friday fasting with me?

MazDazzle · 02/08/2018 22:37

Survived the picnic! I pottered about, serving food but didn’t actually eat anything. No one noticed, or if they did they didn’t say. Had my FD dinner when I got home, which was 550 cals. Glad that’s it out of the way.

Did a food shop today, so my fridge is packed with nutritious, delicious food which I’ll thoroughly enjoy tomorrow. My belly is rumbling at the thought! Currently tucked up in bed to avoid said fridge.Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 03/08/2018 06:27

Morning all
Phew, reached 38C yesterday and woke up early in a pool of sweat again
Now off for a morning walk in the cool

Maz You were very cunning yesterday to nail your FD.
Clever tactics

Welcome back, cake
You did well to have such a minor gain after a big hols
Have a good week nailing FDs and resume good habits on NFDs, then you should be right back on track for further losses

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