Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
PopGoesTheWeaz · 16/05/2018 15:00

Evening is just around the corner now, for the fasters struggling. I see cups of bouillon are popular on here. Can I throw green tea into the mix? I've been enjoying the Pukka mint matcha tea.

I had a weigh in today and the scale gave me different results each time I stepped on. Angry All down from last week, so that is good news. But still rather frustrated - variations were up to 0.5 kilos which isn't a lot but still annoying. Maybe time for new scales? (Weighing conditions were all the same. This was in a span of 2 minutes, with the scale in the same place.)

frieda909 · 16/05/2018 15:11

FD2 of week 2 here and I’m feeling a bit meh... I’m definitely not going to lose any weight this week because my NFDs have been horrendous and I’m also premenstrual Sad but I’m hoping that I might at least have not put too much on. PMS without any chocolate is HARD Angry

Definitely getting into a good rhythm with FDs now anyway: savoury breakfast around 11am, bovril at 3pm and then a stir fry for dinner seems to work well.

3 hours till dinner!

bluerunningshoes · 16/05/2018 15:22

pop are the scales on a hard even surface?
a soft surface (carpet, bathmat, bouncy lino) makes the results vary

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 16/05/2018 15:23

Hang on in there blue and frieda
pop that is bloody annoying but at least it's a loss... I'd automatically go for the largest number Grin

littleladylawyer · 16/05/2018 15:41

Hope the fds are going ok borris, wrecked, bug, calzone, blue and friendly. It's always tough fasting when there's nothing to distract you- I find it harder in crappy weather like today too. Not long until dinner time now.

Great nsv friendly- a fab reminder that it's more comfortable to be a healthy weight!

Had a yummy salmon and lentil salad from m & s for lunch. No idea what to get for dinner, I feel like all I've been doing lately is chicken breast and veg in various forms!

MirrorMirror21 · 16/05/2018 15:42

Not having a very good first NFD. Will be well under TDEE (1350 cals) if I close the kitchen after dinner, but keep snacking on junk. Think I need to focus on making my meals more substantial, to stop the snacking.

Least I did the shred. With a 3 year old hanging off my leg, which was an experience Grin

calzone · 16/05/2018 16:00

I’m having some marmite now which I love.

Dinner will be bolognaise and cauliflower rice.

Bath and bed early.

WreckTangled · 16/05/2018 16:30

I'm home. Have managed 0 calories so far today and am about to cook dinner Smile

PopGoesTheWeaz · 16/05/2018 16:39

Scales are on the kitchen floor which is a hard lino Kardean type thing. Not squishy, but maybe I'll try in the hall which is oak to see if that is more reliable.

43 is that the largest weight or the largest loss? I went for a number just above the largest loss as I figured it wasn't as cheeky as going for the lowest number. Blush In my defence, it did give the lowest number 2 out of 4 times, 1 in the middle, and one high one so I think averages are on my side. Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 17:02

Welcome, Mirror Smile

The most important tips on this WOE:

  1. NO snacking / grazing, EVER
    Eat meals, nothing between
    If you want a treat, latte, alcohol, or even fruit - have it with a meal.

  2. Keep within NHS alcohol limits on NFDs
    Important for longterm healthand weight management
    (- No alcohol or junk food on FDs

NFDs are "normal" eating, so nothing is forbidden, just be sensible.
However, too much sweet junk - cake, biscuits, sweets, ice cream etc - will slow down weight loss,
hence my recommendation, if your loss is slow, is to keep sweet junk to one sensible portion on say 2-3 NFDs

Crisps: A small pkt with a meal shouldn't slow down loss, but if you eat a lot of crisps, they are calorie bombs.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 17:10

Sounds a good system, frieda

pop For consistency from week to week, best to weigh naked the morning after FD2, 1st thing in the morning after loo, but before eating or drinking anything.

However, assuming you haven"t consumed or excreted something in those 2 minutes, check these points:

. For digital scales, switch on and then count to 3, to let the scales calibrate, before you step on.
. Step on, don't jump
. Keep still and don't lean to one side, or forward / backwards
. Low batteries can affect weight displayed (strange but true) so try new ones.
. Use on a hard surface and don't move the scales between weigh-ins.

If all else fails, then you probably need new scales - several of us have Tanita, which are pretty accurate.

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 16/05/2018 17:10

pop I would have gone for the largest loss Smile

WreckTangled · 16/05/2018 17:23

Have just added my dinner to the FD recipe thread for anyone that's interested

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 17:28

That's helpful, wreck Smile

OP posts:
WreckTangled · 16/05/2018 18:09

Kitchen closed on 446.

frieda909 · 16/05/2018 18:57

I’ve ended up at 600 after I got so hungry mid-afternoon that I had to get myself some soup. I was going to make a smaller dinner to make up for it, but tbh I knew I’d just be hungry and grumpy if I did that so I stuck to the original plan.

Bah humbug Sad

bluerunningshoes · 16/05/2018 19:30

kitchen closed at 550
puh, that was tough today.

bluerunningshoes · 16/05/2018 19:31

frieda 600 is still good going.
next time will be better

bluerunningshoes · 16/05/2018 19:34

anyone has a tip for better breath?
I could clear a train carriage this afternoon despite chewing gum Blush

MazDazzle · 16/05/2018 19:43

Good to see so many folks are fasting today! I’m not sure if I find warm weather makes it easier or harder to fast. Do ice lollies count as snacks?

Day 2 of b2b here. Last week and this week my NFDs haven’t been great at all. Building work starts on the house soon so in the process of ripping out. The house is in chaos and I’ve been mindlessly nibbling.

Must do better!

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:14

Maz You are doing so well with your b2bs

For NFDs, if the lollies have calories then they are a snack - just enjoy one for your pud after a meal
Drink more water in summer and remember that you don't eat - or drink calorific drinks - between meals
Keep those hands too busy to reach for nibbles.

blue I can only suggest the boring routine of clean your teeth 3 times per day and use mouthwash.
This also helps avoid nibbling
Floss in the evening

frieda 600 is fine for an FD

Well done on your FD, Frieda, wreck, blue

OP posts:
MirrorMirror21 · 16/05/2018 20:16

Thanks BCF. I stayed up far too late last night reading through this thread and some of the others, so I know the rules. It's just inputting them that is the difficult part Sad

Funny thing is, I'd never usually snack as much as I have today. Are people usually hungrier after a FD?

Anyway, another FD tomorrow, and I'll be at work which I think will be lots easier. Got an itsu noodle cup for my lunch at 4, which is about 220 cals, and then a 270 cal ready meal if I'm hungry when I finish at 9.

Still well under my TDEE today, so not going to be disheartened. Think that's where I've failed before in other diets. I'll try again re no snacking on Friday.

calzone · 16/05/2018 20:24

Another successful fast day for me.

I had a small amount of turkey mince and lentil bolognaise with a whole cauliflower riced.

Delicious

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:44

Don't worry, Mirror Give yourself time to get used to the WOE and work on better habits.
Think longterm and don't worry about blips - we all have them and over the long run, they don't matter at all

Newbies especially can feel hungrier than usual after an FD
I recommend the day after, that you have a substantial breakfast with plenty of protein and some low GI carbs
e.g. pnut butter / sardines / smoked salmon on wholegrain toast,
or porridge (not the flavoured or instant kind) with berries, flaked almonds & cinammon

Have a proper lunch too and optionally a small tea, as well as supper.
That should replenish your body, without snacking.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:45

Well done on a yum FD, calzone

OP posts: