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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
calzone · 15/05/2018 08:11

Smiled......I can’t use 500 calories through the day as it would trigger me to my downfall......

I literally eat nothing until 6.30pm and have 500 ish calories for dinner.

Would that be better for you?

BigChocFrenzy · 15/05/2018 08:24

homemade Weight management is at least 90% dependent on what you eat & drink,
even on a cycling holiday, unless you are participating in the Tour de France

A couple of croissants with cheese and milky sugary coffees could easily be an extra 1,000 calories daily,
even before you add on ices & wine that are extra to your usual WOE.

A 10 stone person (typical leisure) cycling continuously for 60 minutes burns only about 270 calories

Coping with Holidays / Feasts

  • Have a break from FDs and enjoy special treats; occasional feasting is a part of this WOL
    BUT - before you leave, write down the date of your 1st FD, for within 2 days of your return
    AND - stop the holiday indulgences the minutes you return & open your front door again.

  • Keep to the main good habits, or you may find it hard to resume 5:2
    . #1 = No snacking / grazing between meals !
    Have any ice cream, lattes, wine etc only with a meal
    . #2 = Keep within NHS alcohol limits every day
    . #3 = Drink lots of water
    Keep a bottle with you all the time

  • If you wish / can, then daily skip breakfast and do 14:10 or 16:8,
    i.e. only consume calories within a 10 or 8-hour window

Replace breakfast by a couple of black unsugared double espressos instead - this will make bodyfat more available for use as fuel,
extend the overnight fast
and hence boost fat-burning in the morning

OP posts:
HLBug · 15/05/2018 08:26

quacking 9lbs? 9?! Bloody hell that's impressive Grin Sounds like a fab post run celebratory weekend. FD today will sort out most of that out.

Happy Birthday 43 (or 44 now I suppose). Remember to recheck your TDEE as you'll probably get the gift of slightly less calories per day - you lucky thing.

NFD for me today and I'm taking myself out to a lovely solo lunch at a fancy Edinburgh restaurant - can't wait!

BigChocFrenzy · 15/05/2018 08:28

smiled Most successful longterm fasters either save nearly all calories for supper,
or split them into lunch & supper - 2 lowish carb meals
Eating any more often tends to mean unsatisfying, tiny amounts

As my post above, swapping breakfast for black unsweetened espresso or coffee can boost fat-burning by extending the overnight fast and using bodyfat for fuel

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 15/05/2018 08:28

Morning everyone and thanks for the birthday wishes Flowers I've brought in cake for everyone in the office (tradition we have that person whose birthday it is has to buy cake!) I'm hoping to avoid them so that I can have a piece later of the lovely homemade cake my ds and dh baked for me Smile

Smiled yikes, I wouldn't have thought there would be so many calories in seeds

quacking that is surely water and undigested food which, as you know, will be off once you've got a couple of FDs under your belt... good luck

Hope everyone has a good day, stay strong tues fasters. I'm only working till lunch and its a beautiful day here so going to treat myself to a long walk and a stop for a coffee on the way home (skinny latte obvs) Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 15/05/2018 08:30

duck I forgot about your 10k - some of that retained water will also be for muscle repair after a tough run
It's a blip - in a few days you will be marvelling at how it vanished

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 15/05/2018 08:32

ha ha, thanks for that bug - yes, I just checked and I now have fewer calories in my TDEE, but only about 15 so i won't grumble Grin

Enjoy your fancy lunch ...

CheshireSplat · 15/05/2018 09:31

Happy birthday, 40! Cake you'll need to change your name to 44andniceandslim!

Not liking the Jillian-bashing on this thread. I love her! Her sayings have entered DH and my daily vocabulary. And I always have a little giggle as she drools over Anita's abs... I have a total girl crush!

On day 2 of b2b and tummy rumbling already. Have lots of raw veg and 2 hard boiled eggs for lunch. BCF you are right about applying discipline in advance and portioning things out.

And homemade , can I reiterate what a few people have said about booking in that FD in advance for when you get back. I find it only takes a week to get out of the habit and about 3 weeks to get used to it again, so you need to give yourself no choice that first Monday back!

quackingduck222 · 15/05/2018 09:37

That’s interesting to hear BCF. Last week I drank lots of water in preparation plus TOTM that’s a week early so also probably contributing factors. I have eaten a bit of crap but not 9lbs worthy. Blush Weighing conditions were the same but I did drink quite a lot of water early hours of this morning as woke with a rasping thirst.

Happy Birthday 43 I hope you have a lovely day and enjoy your cake. X

Bug - enjoy your lovely lunch. I know it’s horrific I didn’t even manage that much over Xmas.

Pink - Good luck for your FD

Smiled - don’t beat yourself up, these things are so easily done. I’ve done the same with a bucket of yoghurt. I now weigh the correct portion as like your seeds, it’s quite calorific.

Borris - Hello and welcome, B2B FDs are really good. Would definitely recommend the full 650 calories as 2x 500 consecutively are hard. 650 just gives you that extra bit of wiggle room. Best of luck

Pop - that sounds a really good plan. It’s always a good idea to schedule your FDs in advance.

Homemade- I did a unintentional FD last year on holiday. Everyday we skipped breakfast and one evening missed our evening meal due to coming back too late. Still had a few puddings & wines and if I did gain it certainly wasn’t much at all. I think if you go away with the intention to being mindful that helps. Also not having scales I think helps as it’s in the back of your mind. But this WOL does allow time off for holidays if the worst comes to worst you could always do a B2B when you get back. Any damage can be undone quite easily.

Friendly - congratulations on your skirt NSV, that’s fantastic.

Bug - Good luck for your 1st week of maintenance, I remember how daunting that thought was. But in reality it’s great and you’ve just got to trust the process. It bloody well works and any damage can still be undone with a FD not like any other diet.
... no not too sore, made sure I had a really good stretch off and that made a world of difference.

Calzone - Bloody hell thats a amazing SV. 8lbs in a week. Do you go to a class to weigh? If you do your so going to be getting all the awards.
I originally lost quite a lot of weight on SW but took the eat as much as you want too far and when I stopped the diet piled loads back on as I found I could eat sooo much. But I can see that 5:2 combined with SW would be a great combination as your already getting your calorie deficit for the week before your FDs.

Well done to everyone who nailed there FDs. And good luck to everyone fasting today.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 15/05/2018 10:01

no quite yet cheshire i'm now fortyfourandintheoverweightcategorynotobeseanymore Grin

good luck on your B2B, then that's you done for another week! hurrah!

Thanks quacking

Motheroffourdragons · 15/05/2018 10:34

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Iamblossom · 15/05/2018 10:39

I certainly tend to manage a few minis on holiday. We go to Greece and it's always so hot - graze on fruit and greek salad, repeat. I lose weight on holiday!

BigChocFrenzy · 15/05/2018 11:47

Well done on your SV, motherof4
and on your swimming NSV - getting leaner & developing healthier habits helps boost exercise performance

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/05/2018 11:58

I recommend recalculating TDEE every stone you lose
Even if you never mfp, it is useful to have an idea of how your daily energy requirement has dropped

That's one reason people regain after losing a lot of weight - their "normal" eating is still to support a much larger bod.

Another reason for regain is that losing a lot - on any diet - causes adaptive thermogenesis in which the body dials down the metabolism for a year, or a few years
i.e. the real TDEE is lower than that of someone who is naturally that weight
e.g. someone who loses 50lb may have a TDEE 12% lower than that of someone else the same weight and this may take 1-5 years to creep up to the "normal" TDEE

This is even more likely for people who keep yo-yoing by a stone or more, jumping on and off diets
Hence the need for a lifetime maintenance plan

5:2 and other fasting WOEs don't reduce TDEE by quite as much as standard daily diets, or for as long, because

  • fasting slightly boosts metabolism and
  • it preserves muscle mass However, adaptive thermogenesis will still happen after a large weight loss
OP posts:
Borris · 15/05/2018 12:55

So first FD today. So far eaten nothing and had one cup of tea. Heading to the supermarket in a bit (probably stupid idea but I hadn’t planned to start today but once I get an idea I want to get going). Going to buy some marmite as I love it anyway. Was thinking of just getting a ready meal under 500 calories for tea. Are they ok? In future will plan to cook but won’t manage today. Also are muller lights ok? Sorry if I’m asking all the same things previously asked before

calzone · 15/05/2018 13:02

Ready meal is fine but muller lights are about 100 calories each.
I’m sure you can find something nicer to have.....

....though I do like them myself, I tend to eat clean on a fd......

WreckTangled · 15/05/2018 13:04

Muller lights are full of sugar. Better to go for a plain Greek yoghurt. I like the Bol pots if I'm buying a ready meal as you can bulk it out further with veg or salad.

Borris · 15/05/2018 13:33

Ok. Thanks for advice. It’s funny how a marketed diet product has so much sugar. So plain yoghurt and fruit better!

I think I need to sit down and meal plan tonight

noideawhattocallmyself · 15/05/2018 13:50

FD today, was feeling a bit under the weather this morning but think I'm just tired. Also DD having a terrible time with her boyfriend messing her about and I'm resisting the urge to either A) scream 'he's not worth it or B) reach for the cookie jar!

quackingduck222 · 15/05/2018 13:55

Borris - agree with wreck, also as a rule of thumb anything that’s marked as a diet, light or low fat version avoid as it’s full of chemical sugar crap. Full fat all the way. Apart from full fat coke Grin

I know it’s crazy and it took me months of getting used to but the full fat versions taste so much better. And Greek yoghurt is delicious, I have 3kg of it in the fridge as I love it.

FannyDaggers · 15/05/2018 14:56

Hello, just peeking my head back round the door. Had a few issues which meant I’ve not been able to keep up with this thread or the weight loss but I have a hospital procedure this week and hoping to get back on board gently next week. I’ll read back and catch up now!

Borris · 15/05/2018 15:28

Are Diet Coke drinks ok on fast days?

calzone · 15/05/2018 16:22

I think choc would say no. 🙈🙈 to diet drinks I mean.

hoochymama1 · 15/05/2018 17:15

Welcome back Fanny
Second day of b2b, have increased the bovril drinks and so far no headache.

I've been rubbish at planning my food this week, last week it was all spiralized veg and salmon/tuna, this week it's the same home made tomato soup, last night with an omelette, tonight with extra ham.

This week not eating until the evening, though lots of drinks in the day.It's been ok, especially as I have been busy in work.

I need to plan my food better. Also going to MFP my NFD's as I think I have been piling in the junk.

Have a good evening, fellow fasters. That Cake emoji is doing my head in, I need to eat Grin

WreckTangled · 15/05/2018 18:03

Kitchen will close at 1232 after I've had a sneaky g&t once the dc are in bed. My TDEE is 1550 so well within and I feel like I've eaten loads today.

I think Diet Coke wouldn't be great as it's a diuretic.