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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
NoWayNoHow · 23/04/2018 12:20

Morning all (oh! Afternoon even!)

Welcome katie and hockney - this is a great thread with so much support.

Diary completely bonkers this week and am hardly at my own office where I can safely bring in the food I need. Will either do a FD today and Wednesday or, depending on what options I find where I am today, I might have to postpone and do my very first B2B tomorrow and Wednesday. All I know is that I've got to get the FDs done before Thursday as Thurs and Friday are not an option.

Haven't eaten yet today, so will definitely end up being a 16:8 day if it doesn't turn into a FD.

Hope all FDs are having a good one!

WreckTangled · 23/04/2018 12:49

Managed over 18 hours of fasting. Have had some crudités and humous and am about to have a cup of oxo Smile think I might have meatballs and courgetti for dinner.

TheMShip · 23/04/2018 12:55

Hi all! FD Tuesday and Thursday this week for me. Thought about doing it today and got as far as no breakfast, but decided I'd better not after feeling really unwell. It's an unusual Monday with DH starting his new job after almost 2 years out of the workplace being SAHP, kids having new childcare arrangements and everyone having the first day of a new routine. Going well so far! Grin

Last week I did one good FD, and the rest of the week was a total write-off with 3 days of stressful work events and associated food.

noideawhattocallmyself · 23/04/2018 13:09

Hello - I'm new (waves) - have tried SW and WW in the past but gave up on both. So... at age 48 with 3 stone to lose in total (a stone per child :) ) I'm starting again.
First aim is to lose a stone by the summer just to feel more comfortable and a bit fitter chasing the kids around.
K

Homemadehopeful · 23/04/2018 13:40

FD going well so far here Smile No calories except about half a teaspoon of marmite as I felt like I had a bit of a headache coming on and it seemed to work. Am going to have another little bit now then take the dog out for a walk.

Am undecided as to whether to have an omelette when I get back in or just go straight through and just have dinner. Think I will just see how I feel in about an hour.

Was feeling slightly daunted again this morning (only 2nd FD) but once again finding it very straightforward and easier than expected. Hopefully I haven't totally jinxed myself now, I do realise there is a long time left until bed!!!

WreckTangled · 23/04/2018 13:58

I think I've lost 2kg in a week. My scales aren't digital though so it could be slightly wrong. Either way I'm pleased.

Gammeldragz · 23/04/2018 14:43

Hello, hoping to join in, had lurked on the last thread and now there's a new one I thought I'd leap in...
I've been low carb since Jan 2017, with a few breaks/falling off. Lost 40+lbs but reached a plateau so bringing in some fasting now and allowing a few healthier carbs. I have done 5:2 when it first came out, but after losing well at first I began to use it as an excuse to eat crap on the other days (Never counted calories on feed days) so I am thinking now I've sorted my actual diet out with LC and don't binge on rubbish any more, I will have more luck with fasting as I will actually be doing more Mediterranean style eating, rather than just starving and binging!

I pretty much do 16:8 anyway as I rarely eat breakfast, so I am introducing fasting days where I have one meal only. Did three last week, didn't count calories but my guess and aim is 500-800. Will still do mostly 16:8 on other days. This worked well last week, have shifted a few pounds. I tend to have a creamy coffee or two during the day then I don't get hungry, dinner will be lots of veg with whatever I'm having (salmon tonight, hate fish but it's so good for you).

NoWayNoHow · 23/04/2018 14:55

Welcome noidea and gammel!

Lots of lovely newcomers, so nice to see!

Advice pretty please! Will definitely now need to do B2B tomorrow because of food availability where I am today, but I have a question about TDEE/going under and by how much...

Have had 550cals so far today, and today will also definitely fall under the 16:8 rule. If I work on the basis that on some NFDs I can do 20% under TDEE, then I still have another +/- 840cals to eat today.

I think I'd struggle to do that unless I do lots and lots (AND LOTS) of healthy, calorific fats somehow (maybe avo, salmon, etc?). But if I don't manage to get up to the sub-20% mark, is that detrimental in terms of being about to go into 2 days of fasting? Will it slow everything down?

ElRopo · 23/04/2018 15:15

Good afternoon lovely people!

May I join you? I've been lurking for a few weeks, gaining inspiration and tips from the thread whilst I got started. I feel like it's time I had some accountability though so here I am properly.

I'm mid 30s and since having a child a few years ago the weight has slowly but surely crept up. I'm heavier now than I was when I was pregnant so it's time to sort it out (and hopefully get back into my lovely wardrobe which I can't at the moment!).

I'm 5'8" and currently 11 stone 1 lb. I started at 11 stone 6 lb three weeks ago so it's a good start. I'm Type 1 diabetic which makes things just that bit trickier but I'm determined to lose this weight. My first goal weight is 10 stone 7 lb in time for a holiday beg. July with a long-term goal of 10 stone. We will see!

I've signed up with a PT to do weight training a couple of times a week staring a week from now which I'm excited about. I used to be super fit but it's been a while and now I just want to be strong and healthy for my DS.

Monday and Wednesday/Thursday will be my fast days.

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 23/04/2018 15:52

Can I ask a question?
Does your weight go up and down whilst loosing?
I seem to be a bit up & down this week by 2-3lbs. But have just had my period so am guessing this is why.
Sorry if this is a stupid question, am a novice dieter.

CheshireSplat · 23/04/2018 15:58

The MShip wow, that's a big day!! Hope it all goes well for DH and the DCs.

WreckTangled · 23/04/2018 16:38

Oooo EIRopo I'm type one too!

NoWay I don't know the answer but am interested in the answer too.

Gammeldragz · 23/04/2018 16:46

nowaynohow given that people do the blood sugar diet on 800 a day for months, I'd say it should be fine. I did a good few weeks of 800 a day. Wouldn't do it long term, but a few days should not damage your metabolism.

Gammeldragz · 23/04/2018 16:52

Smiled totally normal, this is one of my graphs from last year when I was losing well and weighing daily. Rarely down two days in a row. That was low carb as well so more consistent than fasting where you will see even bigger fluctuations due to the weight of food you may or not be eating.

5:2 Thread No. 76:  Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.
snailhunter · 23/04/2018 17:10

Totally normal to be up and down by a few pounds, even when you're not fasting! All sorts of things affect your weight: time of day, how much you've eaten, when you've had a poo, time of the month, and so on. BCF has some great advice on weighing. Lots of us here tend to do one weekly weigh-in on morning after second fast day, same time, same place. Then look at the long-term patterns rather than short-term fluctuations. Others like to weigh more often - whatever works for you -but I find that sticking to once a week means I'm not panicking about random fluctuations.

applelolly · 23/04/2018 17:20

evening all.
Have just had a nice plate of spinach leaves, cucumber, tomato,pepper,and roast chicken breast. came in around 200 calories according to mfp.

Any advice for a headache? seem to end up with a nagging headache on fds. I drink around 3 l of water which feels quite a lot, is that enough? Would bovril help? I remember drinking that when I was low carbing - to do with slat I think!? Any suggestions? (ps I haven't actually got any bovril today but could get some for next fd!)

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 23/04/2018 17:26

Phew thanks gammeldragz & snail! I figured this was the case. Weighing the morning after 2 FDs seems like a plan Smile

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 23/04/2018 17:27

I guess I'm just impatient to see progress. Can't quite believe I'm sticking to this (she says on FD3!) and am excited to see results Grin

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 23/04/2018 17:28

Going to try cauliflower rice for the first time tonight. Wish me luck Confused

WreckTangled · 23/04/2018 17:35

Apple I would say it's salt, I have a cup of veg oxo at lunch. Yum!

Smiled I like cauliflower rice, it's good with a bit of mint in.

My courgetti spaghetti exploded in the microwave Sad so ended up doing without. Kitchen is closed at 479 calories.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/04/2018 18:28

Welcome, Hockney Smile
Lots of us shorties here !

Welcome noidea Smile
Also many 5:2ers wishing to lose accumulated DC weight

apple I also find 5:2 is sustainable longterm, because on 5 days per week, you eat normally, which allows for sensible amounts of treats & alcohol
Those 5 NFDs are how you eat after reaching goal, so there is no abrupt change.

NoWay On NFDs, if you are not hungry, then don't eat
It usually means your body is using more bodyfat as fuel

Apple To avoid headaches or weakness on FDs, while your body is adapting to fasting
glug a teasp of neat Marmite from the jar (10 cals)
That replenishes lost salt & minerals, while your body is adapting its salt regulation etc to fasting

Welcome, Gammel Smile
Quite a few low carbers use 5:2 to get off the last chunk of weight

Welcome, Elropo
With T1 or T2, I recommend 800 cal FDs, with 2-3 small meals
This keeps blood sugar more stable for you, as Mosely advocates on his BSD
(even though you are just doing 2nFDs per week, it seems sensible to keep to the BSD protocol, since that was based on a Newcastle Uni Hospital T2 protocol)

Good luck to all our newbies on their 1st FD !
Let us know how you are doing

OP posts:
diodati · 23/04/2018 18:43

Thanks for all this info! I really want to try this but my dad is near death so now is not a good time.Sad

Gammeldragz · 23/04/2018 19:36

diodati Flowers the plan will always be here when you're ready.

FD done. Salmon was actually really nice (hate fish, was dreading it), Mediterranean veg were gorgeous. Kitchen closed at 640, second fast day tomorrow should be OK as I'm at uni all day so black coffee and water. Have soup in the freezer if I need it but may well have salad or omelette. Everyone else is having burgers and curly fries!

Homemadehopeful · 23/04/2018 20:09

Flowers diodati, be kind to yourself at this time, something like a new eating plan can always wait.

FD done here. Think it was just under 500 calories but someone threw out the packaging on the stuffed mushroom so not certain on that. I have allowed 156 which I think is more than enough. Was debating whether to also have skyr yoghurt I have in the fridge for 113 calories but think I will give it a miss.

NoWayNoHow · 23/04/2018 20:11

dio Flowers - here when you need it.

Thanks bcf - was really hungry so having sirloin with avocado salad.

Still 200cals off TDEE which is fine, but closer to it than I thought I'd get - saved a piece of pavlova from BBQ yesterday because DS was cross he'd missed out. Suddenly decided he didn't want it today, so that's been my pudding.

Think the 312 mixed berries on top cancelled out the double cream Grin