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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Pinkvici22 · 15/05/2018 18:48

FD one of the week, kitchen closed at 494 cals.

I have had 2x diet cokes though...didn’t know this wasn’t okay Confused

DeltaG · 15/05/2018 19:07

Hi All,

I'd like to join if I may. I have about 5kg to lose to get to my target weight after having a baby 4 months ago. I've done 5:2 in the past and found it to be very good as I love cake and chocolate!

I sometimes struggle to stay motivated as I'm not actually overweight, I'd just like to fit (comfortably) back into my old clothes again. But it being summer soon, it'll be harder to hide under layers and I'll be thankful I made the effort.

Today I've eaten 2 boiled eggs and 4 corncakes. I'm going to have a bowl of veg soup now. I always try to go to bed early on fast days too, so I'm not up and feeling hungry/thinking about chocolate.

Happy fasting to all!

BigChocFrenzy · 15/05/2018 19:47

Hallo again, fanny
I hope your hospital procedure goes smoothly Thanks and that you can resume your WOE.

I suggest when your return that you ease your way in with 800 cal FDs plus the good 5:2 habits:

no snacks / grazing, ever, keep within NHS alcohol limits, drink lots of eater

Welcome, delta Smile
Sounds like you already have a good system and your 1st FD is going well

OP posts:
PopGoesTheWeaz · 15/05/2018 19:54

I wouldn't worry about the diet cokes. I've certainly read some 5:2 diet books that recommend them as a way to get through a FD.

I think long term, and certainly in the Mumsnet world of 5:2 they'd be frowned upon as they would hinder the reprogramming of your tastebuds and snacking habits, which would make long term success easier. And they probably would counteract some of the health benefits of fasting. I know lots of people try to eat only "clean" wholesome foods and water on fast days to cleanse.

I suppose it would depend on if you were fasting just to shift a few pounds or were approaching it as a WOI. And the first could lead to the latter so certainly don't feel guilty about it.

quackingduck222 · 15/05/2018 20:51

Pink - Honestly I wouldn’t worry too much about the diet cokes. It’s whatever gets you through especially on a FD. I used to have a pint nightly but stopped after Xmas since the prices went up. I now use it as a alcohol sub when I go out as I very rarely drink now.
I think it’s supposed to raise your insulin and make you more hungry/ prone to snacking.

Daggers - good to see you back. I wish you well for your recovery.

Mamma - sounds like you had a fab week last week. I think meal planning is a great idea helps you to keep on top of your week.

Well done tangled that’s a awesome NFD.

Hi Delta, welcome. It’s a very supporting group on here so if you ever struggle with motivation just pop on the thread. We are all so very different height weight and body shape but it’s what makes you comfortable isn’t it. Just remember the motto “you can have it tomorrow” and well done on your FD.

Pop - I totally agree with your post. It’s all about balance really isn’t it. We can’t all be 100% all the time.

FD done, meal planning tomorrow for the next week as DH has his 100k run/ walk challenge and he also needs to eat good for the next week in preparation.

DeltaG · 15/05/2018 21:00

Thanks for the welcome everyone!

Well, I've made it to 10pm (I'm an hour ahead here in Switzerland) and will shortly be off to bed. FD done and dusted Smile

bluerunningshoes · 15/05/2018 21:01

saw off visitors today, so can do a fd tomorrow.
I am actually looking forward to that

BigChocFrenzy · 15/05/2018 21:13

Well done on your 1st FD, Delta

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/05/2018 21:25

It's better to have FDs with fizzy crap than no FDs and no weight loss, but it may reduce the fasting health benefits,
So, if you are interested in longterm health, that is one habit to work on.

Mosely's recent book "the Clever Guts Diet" includes an overview of recent research into artificial sweeteners.
He is very against consuming them

One issue is that despite the lack of calories, any sweeteners may raise insulin - which hinders fat-burning and may make longterm weight management harder.

Another issue is that sweeteners, except for stevia, change the balance of gut bacteria / flora, which can lead to longterm weight gain

I recommend cutting down on all fizzy drinks, whether fullfat or diet, because chemicals like sodium benzoate over the longterm can damage vital organs like the kidneys

On an earlier thread, I posted why Coke / Pepsi, whether diet or not, are much worse for longterm health than almost all other fizz, due to the combination of chemicals they contain.

If you must have fizz, then switch to something else, ideally fizzy water with ice & a slice
Failing that, switch to lemonade or ginger beer and choose preferably the kind sweetened with stevia, otherwise Sucralose rather than aspartame.

After evaluating recent research into longterm health effects, I gave up all fizzy crap just over a year ago and I don't miss it

OP posts:
yumyumpoppycat · 15/05/2018 22:34

Hello everyone

Well done on your 10k Duck - 9lbs that is just crazy and shows how fickle the scales are.

Happy Birthday 43/44 Grin

mini fast day no 4 for me today, I have lost 5lbs so far. I am hungry but settling for coffee right now! Been eating much more veg as my focus and it is interesting as even on my high days I have still lost a little weight (all bar following Saturday when I ate too many mini cakes and had prosecco and gained 2lbs).

Good luck tomorrow wed fasters.

PopGoesTheWeaz · 15/05/2018 22:41

Had a really busy morning so realised I hadn't eaten anything by pick up time so decided to keep going and do a sneaky B2B. Had a delicious steamed ginger seabass with rice and pak choi and the whole family had it and no-one felt like they were eating a diet meal.

Kitchen closing at 663. Slightly over due to snacking at kids tea time, but I'll take it.

Clutterfreeintraining · 15/05/2018 22:56

Do any of you feel hungry between meals on NFDs? And if so, how do you deal with it?
NFD for me today and I’ve felt hungry, on and off, for a lot of the day. Fortunately, my motivation is high at the moment so I didn’t cave but not sure for how long I can keep that up Grin
I should probably be choosing more filling foods for mealtimes.

Borris · 15/05/2018 23:01

First FD done today too. It wasn’t as bad as I thought. The marmite drink was a lifesaver

Homemadehopeful · 15/05/2018 23:07

NFD here and calories are under 1100 but that doesn't include the veg or small amount of oil in my stir fry this evening so probably around 1200 max which I am very pleased with as TDEE is just below 1600. I have also taken the dog for a walk and swam for 20 mins so fairly active too (TDEE is calculated as sedentary so I am not double counting exercise) It did include a diet coke today which is a rarity for me as I am usually caffeine free so I'm not going to sweat it, like others have said I think it is whatever works for the individual.

Welcome to Delta. I totally get the motivation thing. I had a long chat to DH about this last night while out walking as I was feeling a bit demotivated yesterday due to a spike in weight (today it transpires that both mood and weight yesterday were probably in part due to totm deciding to make an early appearance today!) I was moaning on that sometimes I don't even know why I am doing this as I am not categorised as overweight and my clothes are mainly size 10. But that aside I know that I would feel healthier and happier with my body if I was a bit trimmer. I've heard Jillian Michaels refer to the last 7lbs as vanity pounds as you don't need to lose them but want to and that is how I feel, but is also why I often don't sustain the effort it takes to lose them. Btw I'm with Cheshire on the JM thing, I even follow her on Instagram Blush

Homemadehopeful · 15/05/2018 23:13

Clutter I would say that it is a combination of choosing foods which keep you feeling full for longer as well as retraining your mind to accept that it is ok and normal to feel hunger. I think we have become to used to always being able to have food whenever we want it and often very quickly that our bodies have got used to never experiencing hunger.

Well done on the first FD Borris, I like marmite but couldn't stomach it as a drink when I tried. I can however eat a small teaspoon of it and on the first few FDs found that helped with headaches.

MirrorMirror21 · 16/05/2018 00:09

Hi everyone! Hope it's ok to join you all.

I'm currently 13st 9, 5ft 8 - BMI 29. I was 14st 7 in January, so a very slow loss since then. Have tried every diet going. I just can't keep myself motivated, so am hoping 5:2 is a little bit easier for me - as willpower levels only massively needed 2 days a week Blush I'm properly miserable in my skin atm, so I really do need to do something about it. I'm only 24, so I don't want to have such shit self esteem forever.

Hoping to be around 10st, so got a long way to go. But am trying to focus on short term goals. The first one is to get under 13st 7, so I've lost a stone altogether. Then into the 12s.

Did my first FD today, was ok actually. Had some boiled eggs, a sandwich thin, some blueberries and a cup of miso soup. Did the shred as well, which I'm going to try and do every day.

It says my TDEE is 1900, which sounds like loads to me. But it's obviously not, or I wouldn't be this massive Blush think I usually eat to that anyway, but have big binges when I'm feeling stressed or sad or drunk. Wine is definitely a problem with me, not only the calories from it, but the snacks that follow, and I also eat more the morning after. So that's the main thing to watch I think.

Anyway, I'm just reading through the thread for guidance and you all sound lovely. But the hunger pangs have started a little bit so going to go to sleep.

Grin
yumyumpoppycat · 16/05/2018 00:10

Clutter I find herbal tea or even just hot water helps a bit when hungry (not a huge amount but a bit!)

FriendlyGhost · 16/05/2018 06:51

Welcome Mirror. I am the same height as you and was a similar weight just over a year ago after having a baby. I lost most of it in a few months by doing the shred and eating reasonably although lots of snacking. On 5:2 i’ve lost 6lbs in 4 weeks and i’m at my initial target of 10st so it really seems to work. Good luck!
Another FD here. DD2 has been awake since 5 so it’s going to be a long day. I know some calories will have to go on coffee before I can begin to function. Off to do the shred now before anyone else gets up.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 06:56

Well done on your SV and veg NSV, yumyum

Well done on a good 1st FD, borris

and on that opportunist b2b, pop
When you're in the mood, go with the flow.

clutter It was the norm throughout many millennia to feel hungry in the hour before each meal.
That's actually good for you and also burns more fat
Your body is fine with it, but you may just need to get used to the new mindset of not reaching for a snack the minute you are no longer full.

However, if you are genuinely hungry for longer between NFD meals, then

  • check if you are eating your full TDEE - you don't have to eat up to this if not hungry, bu if you are hungry, then you should

  • check the type of calories - you may need to lower the GI of your food to stabilise insulin levels, i.e. increase some foods, decrease others, do swaps:

. Sweet treats raise insulin, so you may be having too much, even as part of a meal.
Move to say one sensible portion and not on every NFD
. Solid food is usually more filling than liquid, so eat your cals rather than drinking them as lattes, shakes or smoothies
. Cut out fruit juice, fruit smoothies, fruit puree, dried fruit, sugary breakfast cereal (including Special K!)
. No more than 2 portions fruit daily and try to have some lower-sugar fruit - e.g. apples, berries, pears rather than banana & mango.
. Increase the number of veg portions, different colours - fill over half your plate with them,
. Check you are eating sufficient protein - oily fish, e.g. salmon is especially filling
. Move from white to wholegrain starchy carbs e.g. rye / wg bread, red/brown rice, quinoa, porridge (not the flavoured instant kind)
Also check your starchy portions are not too large, especially no more than 2 slices bread per meal and don't have bread every meal - boost veg & protein to compensate.
Avoid double carbs at meals unless you halve the quantities of each.
. Boost beans, peas, lentils - full of fibre and proven to stabilise blood sugar

OP posts:
CheshireSplat · 16/05/2018 07:16

Morning all, second FD of my B2B didn't work well yesterday. 2 b2bs were too much this week, had a frustrating day at work doing lazy people's work for them, sore boobs so maybe hormonal... Not sure of the reason. So I turned it into a mini FD and I'm doing a mini again today.

Clutter yes, I feel hungry on NFDs . I feel hungry on FDs too, but can cope with that as it's obvious I should. However, we should at some times on NFDs too. Cutting out snacks on NFDs has really helped me get to grips with this WOL at last.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 16/05/2018 07:21

Well done to all the Tues fasters Grin and welcome to all the newbies, mirror I am one inch smaller than you and started at 14stone exactly 12 weeks ago, I am now 12 st 12lbs, it's not coming off super fast but I'm averaging 1lb a week and it is coming off, more than this though is that it seems to be coming off from around the middle, I'm classic apple shape Sad so this is vital for me. Good luck with it.

Had lovely birthday meal yesterday, but felt awful afterwards, really bloated and cramp which I suspect was the small bit of bread with starter and rice with main as I've practically been eating low carb. I also had a few Wine and Gin oops!!

Going to try for a mini fd today to compensate and then 2nd fd on Friday again. Good luck weds fasters

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 16/05/2018 07:25

Nevermore cheshire sounds like you did the right thing. I'm with you with the sore boobs at the moment, totm is around the corner.... as I get older I seem to have 2 weeks out of every month when I have sore and tender boobs Sad rubbish!

WreckTangled · 16/05/2018 07:25

Morning. FD for me and I'm going to try and make it to dinner.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 16/05/2018 07:27

Stooopid autocorrect. ... 'nevermind' obviously. It kept changing boobs to bobs also... maybe I should name them Grin

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 16/05/2018 07:32

FD2 no seeds in sight!

Wow 43 you have done brilliantly! Just wondering how do you manage NFDs? Do you drink any alcohol ever? How much exercise do you do?