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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
WreckTangled · 14/05/2018 20:18

Mmm sounds good calzone. I'm currently dreaming of all the nice food I'll have tomorrow too!

hoochymama1 · 14/05/2018 20:26

Thanks for the encouragement BCF Thanks

Well done fellow fasters Smile

Final count was about 540, feel fine. Must drink lots tomorrow-b2b. Bovril is my friend Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 14/05/2018 20:36

That's a good skirt NSV, friendly It means you've burned bodyfat

cheshire With hummus - and nut butters - I know I have to measure in advance and put the rest away, on FDs & NFDs
Otherwise, I inhale the whole pot Blush

Good planning around the danger points, clutter Wink

Well done on nailing your FD, wreck, snail, Blossom

blossom For most women in particular, weight loss is imo at least 90% diet / dietary habits and 10% exercise,
except for elite athletes
I have known of blokes who just ramp up exercise and lose easily, but it doesn't seem to work that way for women without also changing eating & drinking habits

One particular issue with increasing exercise is that people tend to eat more
The extra calories burned - compared to just being awake - are
a) often over-estimated, by both gadgets & calculators and
b) sometimes less than the extra food with which exercisers reward themselves, especially if that is with a junky treat.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/05/2018 20:39

blossom Safest to get your back sorted professionally first, if it is actually injured, to avoid worsening it.
It may be that the ligaments are slightly out of position.

Every 3-4 months I used to have a tune-up at chiropractioner, to counteract the effects of an office job on my ancient back.
Have you tried that ?
I skipped this treatment for the last couple of years after moving to Germany and the backache returned, so I recently found a chiro here who is getting my back into shape again.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/05/2018 20:43

lawyer Any system that supports increasing exercise is good for your health, so I'd go for that

Just for you Smile, this section will be in the new #4 exercise thread, so let me know how you find them:

BUM / GLUTES

2-min workout especially for women’s bums
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh4PXfQiz4UU___

Quadruped Hip Extensions:
Keep core tight throughout these
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bmgMJdex-_0

Glute Bridge
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1h7XSpDytoQ

Single Leg Glute Bridge Pulse
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IoSecSYcr1g

Also, Squats & lunges, with good form - your own bodyweight is fine, no need for dumbbells etc.

OP posts:
Iamblossom · 14/05/2018 20:44

Thanks big choc. Yes I have had every treatment you can possibly have on my back over the years. None of it seems to make any difference, although they all ooh and aah about the state of it when I first go each time it gets bad.

Only thing that ever really helps is time.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/05/2018 20:51

Prawns are always a good FD standby, 43
How about with a salad, or veg stirfry

Sounds like you are doing well, calzone, frieda
Not long to go

pop Once you have mfped a little while, you'll know in advance where the calorie bombs are
mfp can be quite a shock, not just a reality check, but it provides information to help retrain your habits for the longterm.
mfp is just like training wheels, for as long as you want them, then no longer.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/05/2018 20:54

Including chiro ?
I tried everything else first, because I considered it near woo Grin
Then my PT recommended this guy who actually trains a Uk national womens team in an event, which is why I was prepared to give it a go.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/05/2018 20:56

Otherwise, complete rest - and watch what you eat & drink - then ask me again about back exercises when you are recovered

OP posts:
FriendlyGhost · 14/05/2018 21:03

FD finished at 550 calories. I had a goats cheese salad for dinner which was delicious. It’s the first time I’ve had something other than tofu stir fry for dinner on a FD.
Lawyer i’ve been doing the Shred 5 times a week since I started this. There are a lot of squats and lunges so great for bum toning.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 14/05/2018 21:10

Doh cheshire

Well done Monday fasters, kitchen closed today at 519. I didn't have prawns in the end, I literally only sstopped at 8.30pm do put a third of a packet of calamari in the oven and had a wee salad and some garlic mayo... not ideal but I couldn't be bothered cooking.

Early night for me, birthday tomorrow so Nfd is going to be tricky as ds and dh have baked a cake and they are taking me out to dinner at nice restaurant... i am so lucky Grin

Gonna have to change my username to forty-four Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 14/05/2018 21:19

Well done on your FD too, friendly, cheshire

Yup Shred is a good quick blast

OP posts:
littleladylawyer · 14/05/2018 21:29

Brill, thanks bigchoc, I'll let you know how it goes Smile

Thanks friendly, I've done shred before but found Jillian really irritating! I should dig it out and have another bash.

Happy birthday for tomorrow fortythree 🎉🥂

Homemadehopeful · 14/05/2018 21:55

FD ended at around 550 here, max 560. Am planning on really focusing on counting calories for the next 3 NFD with potentially a mini thrown in too. I will be REALLY disappointed if I am not 10st 5lbs or less on Friday morning!!!

I am also really beginning to stress about our upcoming holiday. We are away for 10 nights (first night is a premier inn by the EuroTunnel for early departure the following morning) Every year I think I won't put on weight as we spend every day cycling around the island and every year I do!! Have decided I am not going to partake in the daily croissants (sometimes with cheese!) for breakfast and will walk / swim / cycle as much as possible but I am not prepared to not drink wine or have a few ice creams while on holiday. Have been considering throwing in 1 FD in the middle. Has anyone done this on holiday? I imagine any will power will desert me the moment I arrive in France so the idea is probably nothing more than a fantasy!!!

Have a lovely birthday fourty and enjoy your treat!!

Homemadehopeful · 14/05/2018 21:55

Forty not Fourty!!!!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 14/05/2018 22:05

Thanks little and homemade
I think if you can manage to skip your breakfasts on holiday then you'd have more leeway homemade but agree, if in France and on holiday you should enjoy the fine wine and cheeses on offer :-) life would be too miserable otherwise. plan a fd for the first day back off holiday to curb excess....

HLBug · 14/05/2018 22:08

First Maintenance FD done and, as suspected, I've gone over BlushShockHmmConfused Ending on 825ish so not the end of the world.

I've had a lovely food day though Smile

B: v.milky coffee and half a banana with some blueberries
L: smoked salmon and scrambled eggs on toast
D: pitta bread stuffed with spicy chicken, lettuce, peppers and a sprinkle of cheese.

Cheese, extra salmon and breakfast were my 'extra' reward calories today, and very lovely they were too Smile

Did also go to Zumba tonight though, so not all bad. Off to bed now as I've to be up at 5am to catch a train down to Edinburgh. Bleugh.

Well done to all the other Monday Fasters Smile

PopGoesTheWeaz · 14/05/2018 22:38

Well done Bug. Sounds like a day of delicous treats.

My kitchen is closing at 411 as I miscalculated dinner, but in the right direction, and when I realised waas no longer hungry so didnt run back to the kitchen for a top up.

I'm worried about holiday too. Am doing 4:3 this week, and maybe a B2B + mini next week to compensate in advance. Will likely skip breakfasts while away and should be able to fit in a number of hour+ runs which will help. And will book in my FD for return. And at the end of the day, this WOL has to allow for a week off for it to work for me so I won't stress too much about it.

FriendlyGhost · 14/05/2018 22:44

Happy birthday for tomorrow forty!
Lawyer I find her intensely irritating too. Even my 3 year old mocks her. I find it helps me power through it to get to the end though and I do actually like the exercises.
Homemade I would say enjoy the wine and cheese but include lots of veggies and make sure you’re back on plan as soon as you’re home. It seems that a couple of good FDs can undo a lot of damage.

Borris · 14/05/2018 23:18

Hello everyone. Thanks for the welcome. I’m doing my first fast day tomorrow. 🤞🏻

Another question about b2b. If you eat 650 cal instead of 500 does that mean it’s less likely to be as effective?

WreckTangled · 15/05/2018 07:12

Borris if you scroll back through the thread I asked that question!

NFD for me good luck Tuesday fasters.

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 15/05/2018 07:30

Well I managed to well and truly bugger up my FD yesterday. Was going so well on about 70cals for breakfast then cycled (30 mins) to the swimming pool, swam for 1/2 hr then cycled back. Had a light salad for lunch - leaving about 300 for dinner... then did some admin for work and absent mindedly munched my way through a WHOLE POT of sunflower seeds! 🙄 pushing me over 1300 for the day. So annoying. Felt really bad so skipped dinner & went to bed.

What did I learn?

  1. I need to watch the exercise on FDs and

  2. seeds are VERY calorific indeed!

Also quite pre-menstrual which I guess does make me want to eat ALL the food normally 🤦🏻‍♀️

quackingduck222 · 15/05/2018 07:34

I’m back with my tail between my legs after a couple of days off and a whopping 9lb gain. I’m hoping that a chunk of that is undigested food as that’s awful.

FD here today, I will be back to catch up with the thread.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/05/2018 08:01

Happy Birthday, 43 Thanks
Have a lovely day with your kind family

25 calories = totally unimportant, bug
825 is fine; other days you'll be 775. It evens out anyway

smiled I class seeds & nuts in the group of foods that must be measured out in advance and the rest out safely away before starting to eat.
Other such items are hummus, nut butters and also alcohol

These are just too moreish - I have often raised my (grubby) chin from an empty jar of mixed nut butter Blush so I know my discipline has to be applied in advance, not during.

Borris b2b was in fact the 1st version of 5:2, by Dr Michelle Harvie, sponsored by cancer research charities
Her human trials proved b2b with 650 cals is effective, hence why we say 650.

It has cumulative advantages - health benefits & weight - since you start FD2 already in a fasted state.
This is why the extra calories balance out
BUT people lose the extra weight benefits if they can't handle 5 consecutive NFDs sensibly
or if they don't nail the FDs

The key to choosing b2b or standard 5:2 is which system you can do sustainably for weeks & months.

Don't panic, duck Smile
Impossible to gain 9lb of fat in a couple of days - that would be about an extra 27,000 calories on top of your TDEE.
So, it'll be mostly undigested food and retained water

Are you measuring under exactly the same conditions:
naked, 1st thing in the morning, after loo, but before eating or drinking anything, same scales, same position on level hard surface, not carpet / rig

Are your days off very junky ?
Some women tend to retain a lot of water with junk and / or booze

OP posts:
Pinkvici22 · 15/05/2018 08:08

Morning all, had a good NFD and got my first FD of the week today. It’s a beautiful sunny day and I’m feeling positive!

This thread is so supportive, you’re all really helping me!

Happy birthday Forty Flowers