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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
littleladylawyer · 23/04/2018 20:14

Welcome noidea, gammel, EIRopo, hockney and diodati- sorry if I've missed anyone!

wreck that's rubbish, I hate it if my fd food plans are scuppered, but well done for ploughing on.

Hope the Monday fasters are doing ok, I've just had my dinner of 450cals and nicely full. Think I'll stick with b2b tomorrow as various plans later in the week.

noway I think it's fine to be that much under if you're not hungry- I'm sure your body will let you know if you need more, and it gives you more leeway for meals out and weekends

WreckTangled · 23/04/2018 20:17

Just had a hot chocolate Blush it was only 36 calories though and my stomach was making awful noises the dc kept commenting.

Not sure whether to do do B2B to get it over with or do another FD Wednesday. I think I'll wait until Wednesday.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/04/2018 20:32

So sorry to hear that diodati Thanks
Just take good care of yourself and then later, when you feel ready to tackle weight, you will be made very welcome here - the 5:2 threads are lovely & friendly

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 23/04/2018 20:34

wreck For future FDs:
Hot Bovril (only10 cals) is a good standby if your tum is rumbling - as it is savoury, less likely to make you feel hungry again

OP posts:
snailhunter · 23/04/2018 20:38

Kitchen closed at around 500 - roast cod, potato wedges, peas, Greek yog with strawberries. Yum yum yum. I love my FD treats.

WreckTangled · 23/04/2018 20:42

BCF the DC's Easter eggs were haunting me so I thought hot chocolate would be better Grin also my sugar level was on the way down so saved me from needing jelly babies! I do love bovril though

Netflixandchilli · 23/04/2018 20:44

How do you calculate veg? If it's not starchy are you strict about adding this up? Lettuce etc!

I'm doing 800 per day as suggested by MM in the paper at the weekend. Feeling a bit hungry and headachey.

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 23/04/2018 20:47

FD kitchen closed at 458

Tea & coffee for breakfast

Glorious coconut/lime & grains soup for lunch

Crispy seaweed snacks

Chickpea curry, cauliflower rice, wilted spinach & 50g 0% Greek yog.

Loads of herbal tea!

Hope everyone had a good day Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 23/04/2018 21:11

NetFlix Glug some Marmite for your headache, or have a hot Bovril

Non-starchy PLAIN veg is low cal and v healthy, so I wouldn't be strict, certainly not for salad veg
BUT
do weigh carefully if it is accompanied by a creamy / oily / cheesy sauce or dip, or if it has croutons or bacon bits etc on top

OP posts:
noideawhattocallmyself · 23/04/2018 21:31

Decided to do a NFD today as I got really shaky and had to drive the kids around - will try marmite or bovril next time.
Planning FD Wednesday but I need to work late so may have to keep going on black coffee / fruit teas. Hoping keeping busy will help too, I always seem to be thinking about food anyway so goodness knows what I'll be like without any :)

MazDazzle · 23/04/2018 21:38

Sorry to hear that diodati. Take care of yourself. Flowers

It’s so great to see new people on the thread! Welcome to all the delurkers.

Those crispy seaweed snacks sound delicious Smiled! Where did you get them? I don’t think I’ve seen them for sale before.

Today was day 1 of b2b. I’ve been a right moaning Myrtle. Had to cancel my workout this morning. It’s becoming mission impossible. I live fairly rurally and there aren’t many classes/gyms. Also, DH works away from home and childcare is hard to come by. I wish I could just go to a class a few days a week! It shouldn’t be this hard. DC3 didn’t nap today or yesterday and has been a miserable toad. DC1 has been testing my patience to the absolute limits. At least the middle one has been in a good humour!

Ah well, I suppose it’s a good thing that I’ve lost so much weight mainly through my eating habits alone. Once I get more time to myself to ramp up the exercise it can only get easier.

Will be checking in tomorrow for FD2. Goals for tomorrow: suck it up and stop complaining! I will try to be a bit more positive Grin.

Well done to everyone fasting today. And if it didn’t go quite to plan, don’t worry; there’s always tomorrow!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 23/04/2018 21:49

Wow loads of newbie's Grin welcome all and hope those who started today have had a successful first day.

Nfd here and under tdee by around 300cals, just enough to share a bottle of fizz with dh on Friday to celebrate our wedding anniversary Grin got a tricky few weeks coming up with working away, anniversary meal and birthday celebrations! All these will test my resolve so need to be strong.

Any tips for working away when you are not in control of food? I'm at a conference in Dublin for 4 days so I can skip breakfast but then will be presented with 'brown' food in the day and then eating out at evening , with some wine thrown in to help me through it all《ouch》

Fd tomorrow and Thursday this week.

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 23/04/2018 21:51

Hey maz seaweed snacks are from Itsu - Waitrose sell them too. Crunchy crispy salty goodness Grin

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 23/04/2018 21:52

Flowers dio be kind to yourself...

Oh maz that's rubbish that it's so difficult for you to get to the classes, is there not a creche close to the gym you could drop them at? But we'll done on nailing day 1 of your b2b under those circumstances Grin

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 23/04/2018 22:08

Oh you can also get the SS on Amazon (sorry a bit seaweed obsessive here!) Grin

Hockneypool · 24/04/2018 00:05

Thank you for a lovely welcome. It’s good to be amongst such lovely and supportive people - and some shorties too!

I think I’m ready for my first fast day tomorrow! Food and plan sorted. I’m aiming for 500 cals.

CheshireSplat · 24/04/2018 02:51

43 4 days sounds tough!!!

When I was at a function last week, I didn't eat all my main course and just nibbled a bit of my pudding. One of my colleagues just said no to a pudding and no-one took any notice. It was rather revolutionary for me, to realise you don't have to eat it all. There were about 400 people so the waiting staff didn't take it personally.

One idea maybe to have a healthy snack before if you have some free time, eg a supermarket salad to take the edge off your hunger, so you can make better choices.

Or eat the meals and NO SNACKING? Presumably there will be lots of biscuits.

And given my experiences of last week, don't drink too much or it'll all go to pot.

diodati · 24/04/2018 06:19

Thanks for the kind words! I'm trying to keep myself from comfort eating, which is the best I can do atm. Good luck all and see you later.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 24/04/2018 07:09

Thanks cheshire yes the no snacking rule will help, I suppose I could try and buy my own food for lunches and avoid the conference stodge, it'll be the evenings that will be difficult although a 10 hour drinking session (that was you right Grin) will not be on the cards, but only because I'm going with my two professors who are a bit square Wink

BigChocFrenzy · 24/04/2018 07:18

Morning and well done to all the Monday fasters

43 Business jaunts
+There is usually some choice at meals and if so, go for them.
+No snacks or nibbles between meals, e.g. no biscuits, cake etc whatsoever
+No puddings
+No alcohol - keep drinking water all day, so you are well-hydrated
Those choices should balance out the food being more beige than you would normally choose

OP posts:
SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 24/04/2018 07:31

Oh dio just read your post about your Dad. Sending you un-mumsnettey "hugs" Thanks

applelolly · 24/04/2018 07:37

morning all.
I went to bed at 9 last night with a stonking headache! I had thought it was all down to FD but have woken up with a yucky sore throat so suspect I may have a touch of the horrible virus ds2 has had. nfd tpday so will concentrate on healthy food and nourishing my body. Hoping I am feeling better for my next planned fd on Thursday - will skip it if not.
Have an exercise class tonight - didn't run yesterday as planned due to not feeling great.Hopefully will feel up to it tonight.
Good luck to all those fasting today.

quackingduck222 · 24/04/2018 07:57

Hello the all the newbies.

And well done to all the posters who did a FD yesterday. I forget how many of you fast on a Monday and there’s far too many post to comment on.

Maz - as you live rural and are limited to gym classes and anyone else in that situation. Is there something on YouTube you can do? HIIT dancing or anything you fancy for that matter?
With all the gadget TVs now it’s easier to get work outs for free on the big screen.?
Well done on your B2B.

43 - I’d say be mindful, that can go a long way towards helping and a good FD when you get back?

Welcome Hockney, and good luck on your FD. Your first post sounds similar to me when I started 5:2 also 5ft3 with a low TDEE. Don’t get disheartened by the numbers because when you get into the swing of things and start making good choices those numbers aren’t as low as they seem I’m constantly trying to get as much bang for my buck.

Diodati - sorry to hear your news, we will be hear when your ready to start.

Apple Lolly - that’s awful timing to get sick. Hope it passes quickly.

Im off for a run today probably Tredmill as the weather here looks shocking for the next week.

Good luck to everyone on there FDs and B2Bs today.

yogi47 · 24/04/2018 07:59

Lovely to see new peeps joining in. Best Mumsnet thread by a mile! So informative and supportive... good luck as you start your FDs. Just had a binge read as haven't really had time the last week but didn't want to run and not say well done to all with the SVs and NSVs and Thanks to those going through a tough time.

Thank you for whoever suggested the Elly Pear book - inspired with new recipes now. B2B today and yesterday using recipes from her book. The mixed veg omlette (100 cals) has set me up both mornings and the chickpea, prawns and spring greens (was like a stew) for tea last night was yum. DH away but my two DS enjoyed it (although they had to supplement with cheese and biscuits after Grin). So NSV for me yesterday - stepped away from the cheeseboard!!

FriendlyGhost · 24/04/2018 08:21

Can I join? I started yesterday in an effort to lose my baby weight. I managed approximately 700 calories but i’m still breastfeeding my 14 month old so I don’t want to affect my milk. About 100 of the calories were milk in tea and coffee. I don’t think I can survive without them. Has anyone had success around the 700 calories mark or do I need to drop it?
I think my FD will be Monday and Thursday. Monday I have swimming lessons with my dds which takes up a lot of the day so there’s less time to think about hunger. Thursday will require more will power!