5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

First FD today - I have a jar of Bovril at the ready :)

I love this thread - find it really motivating reading your posts and ups and downs (reassures me if I slip I can get back on it and not think soddit and eat the world!) so thank you all!

Morning all! Checking in for my second FD today - normally I do Thursdays but have lovely lunch with friend planned. Funny, they really are getting so easy to do. I'm now in my fourth month of this WOE and it feels like it's becoming a habit, which is great. Decided to focus on hitting some fitness goals rather than weight loss goals over the next few months, so I don't think so much about plateauing. Think I am going to find a nice 10k to run over the next few weeks and then start training for a half marathon.

On my second FD of the week as well, feel a bit more focused, managed to stay 10% under TDEE yesterday and had a good FD on Monday.

I have 6 weeks to lose around 3/4kg which would put me under 11 stone so I’m using that as my short term goal.

I think because fasting isn’t like a ‘diet’ then the prospect of being at goal isn’t so daunting Gammel. I used to yo-yo before I discovered 5:2. I’d lose weight fast, but I’d pile it on again and more.

I’ve been fasting since Nov. 2012. Originally reached my goal in 2014. Maintained for a year, then fell pregnant. For the last two years I’ve been slowly chipping away at the baby weight. This is a WOL for me, so even after I reach goal again I plan to follow 5:2 forever.

Good luck noidea! What’s your food plan for today? The thread is very reassuring, isn’t it? When I first started I used to read through the old threads. They gave me the motivation to keep going.

Thanks BCF. Am having a full blood test this afternoon as they were concerned.

Thanks for welcoming me back all- did a FD successfully yesterday which is good.

Great people are noticing Maz!

Hey Quacking- hope you are well. I think the weight will go quite quickly you are right.

Re B2B FDs- I was doing them as I found it easier and it got it over and done with. However, I've now found it is too long a gap between fasts- I start slipping into bad habits by Sunday. If I do Tues and Thurs then my head stays in the game across the week better.

NFD today. Remembering why I like this WOE!

FD here again today. So far no calories consumed even with all my colleagues eating biscuits!!

quacking what app do you use to track weight lose? I was planning on plotting it in Excel so I could highlight the FDs too but have to say an app would be easier!

homemade A few people have done 4:3
It doesn't speed up weight loss unless you make sure you don't eat more on NFDs to compensate
Also, 3 FDs & only 4 NFDs seem more of a "diet" - hence usually less sustainable longterm - than only 2 FDs & 5 NFDs

However, it is useful to compensate for the occasional week with a big event, or as a few weeks bootcamp if someone is especially keen to trim down for an event fairly soon.

friendly Most people who do b2b just prefer to nail both FDs early in the week, rather than for quicker loss.

A few folk who 5:2 for the health benefits do b2b because this probably increases these.
It is the version developed by Dr Michelle Harvey for women cancer survivors - she was sponsored by some cancer charities - and allows 650 cals per day instead of 500.

There is no evidence that it leads to quicker loss, because there has been no scientific comparison of the 2 versions.

However, whatever version you choose, by far the most important factor is that it is sustainable for you longterm.
Any advantage is lost if it means you don't regularly nail both FDs, or if having 5 NFDs in a row causes you to over-indulge, especially on junk / booze.

Best way for quick loss
providing you regularly nail FDs, is to keep the recommended good NFD habits always:
no snacking, keep NHS alcohol limits, be sensible about the amount & frequency of junky treats
(keep total of junk + alcohol to within 10% of total weekly calories, up to 20% on longterm maintenance)

lawyer An FD is much easier - and probably leads to slightly more loss - if on the NFD before you keep to NHS alcohol limits and have any junky treats before 3PM
So, try to plan Sunday afternoons & evenings to be sensible.

Of course, even on weekends, the "no snacking between meals" rule should hold all the time
Have any treats, booze, lattes, crisps, cake, biscuits etc only as part of a meal.

Hmm might go over 500 today as I'm starving! Will be less than 550 though so can cope with that.

Don't worry, gammel Several longterm (3-5 years) maintainers here & elsewhere on MN, including TIP, me.
Intermittent Fasting WOEs like 5:2 seems more sustainable longterm than standard "every day" diets

What really helps is using the NFDs as training days during which you develop the good habits for longterm maintenance & a reasonably healthy lifestyle

If you return to your old WOE, you return to your old weight & waist
So everyone needs a defined lifetime maintenance plan, not just wishful thinking

Many possible maintenance WOEs
+5:2 and eat back the deficit
+6:1 or 13:1
+daily 16:8 (eat only within an 8-hour window, daily)

Of course, you take a break and come off them during holidays

All maintenance plans:
+NO snacking or grazing

• try to keep within NHS alcohol guidelines
• be sensible about treats
• keep total weekly calories of booze+junk within 20% of total weekly cals
• weigh at least weekly and return to 5:2 whenever you regain 4lb, e.g. right after a holiday or special weekend feasting.
• Before going on a longer than 1 week holiday, write down the next day on which you will have an FD (even if you don't think you've gained)

snail To help break a plateau, try short bursts of intense HIIT, e.g. Fat Blasts, which just take a few minutes on a few days per week, see 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #33* OP
This can help resolve issues of insulin metabolism that might be hindering progress.

For you, maybe the v short intense sprint bursts - which would also boost your running pace

A plateau is at least 3 weeks of zero loss in lb or inches - so slow loss when you are around healthy BMI doesn't count
It's often when you've lost a chunk of weight and reached a previous weight "set point"

If you've checked the amount of treats & booze are within the 10% guideline, also had a full week mfp to check total consumption,
then it just needs patience, but you'll get there
So relaxing and boosting exercise is exactly the right approach

Good luck on your 1st FD, NoIdea
We have all been there and experienced blips - they don't matter
What matters is moving on and longterm getting it right most of the time
Definitely no need to be perfect

The only things "forbidden" are feeling guilt about food, or shame about your bod

Thanks bigchoc. I find the trouble with weekends is that if we are just at home DH and I don't tend to have a proper satisfying lunch, which leads to grazing over the afternoon.

This weekend I'm determined to stick to the 16:8, two meals a day routine I have during the week. We are out and about shopping on Sat so that will be fine, Sunday no plans but I'll have a proper lunch then busy myself sorting out my wardrobe until dinner- hopefully digging out more summery clothes will be added motivation to avoid the chips and dips and biscuits DH is addicted to!

Good luck today noidea, snail, munki, homemade, wreck and any fasters I've missed!

afternoon all.
Did a 6.5K run this morning. (decided against full 10K as wanted to go a different route !) was quite pleasant and I beat the rain!
Does anyone on here use a fitbit? How to you find the daily calories burned calculation compares with other tdee calculators? I'm logging my food on there today rather than mfp as that was annoying me, but will have to make sure I deduct the exercise calories it allows me. Ive had around 850 calories so far in breakfast and lunch, so plenty left for dinner as aiming for around 1800 I think!
Keep going all those fasting today. You can do it.

Thanks quacking yes I am firmly in the camp of high protein having done Atkins for years

Apple lolly - I use my Apple Watch running the Nike running app through it on the Tredmill so I actually get 3 very different calorie burnt readings I never knew what to believe but spent some time on google yesterday and it seems to also depends on your weight.
I found the calculation of your weight in Llbs x by 0.75 = cals burnt per mile.

That gave me a reading in between my watch and Tredmill.

Homemade - my app is called “My Weight” it’s a very old app, had it on my phone for years and years but does the job and I like the fact you can add notes to each weigh in if you wish.

That’s all really useful thanks Bigchoc.
I decided to do a FD after all today. I was so tired this morning that I felt sick and then dashing around all morning meant it got to 1pm without me having eaten. I’ve got a busy afternoon so I think I may as well just wait until this evening, have my calories then and go to bed really early. Usually when i’m tired I reach for junk as a pick me up so this is a good way of stopping myself.

Thanks quacking I'll have a try with that formula. The only good thing about being significantly over weight is that I burn more calories per mile dragging my lady arse around!! Can I ask would you ever eat back those exercise calories on a nfd? Or if not what activity level would you suggest to use on the tdee calculator?
My plan for exercise once I've done this 10k is 2x body attack classes, 2x 5-7k runs, and then 1/2 gym or swim session. Plus dog walking. My job is mostly siting down, but at home I'm very busy. Pretty much always get at least 10000steps a day, more on running days. Also I am 3.5stone overweight. Sooooo someone tell me how to properly calculate my tdee!

Just cooking dinner, can't wait! Homemade bolognese with added veg and lentils with cauliflower rice and salad. Yum.

Apple - My sedentary TDEE is just over 1400 As I’m short and when I started running I kept with that TDEE as i was starting running from scratch. I don’t eat them back now but I have raised my TDEE from sedentary to moderately active (sports 3-5 times per week) and atm I’m doing about 10k x 3 a week. But I’m at target weight and am on maintenance.

It’s recommended to set TDEE one below your level. I’m not great at guessing activity level as I’ve climbed my way up to what works for me since hitting maintenance IYSWIM. But if I had to say I would say moderately active for you aswell but hopefully BCF can help you out there.

It’s hard to get the balance right for enough calories to loose weight but also enough to fuel yourself isn’t it.

Apple i’m using my Fitbit to track calories and exercise. It usually gives me around 2300-2500 a day. I don’t think I’ve been eating that many so if it was correct then I would be thin. I’m aiming for 1500-1800 on non fast days and will see how that goes. I’m fairly active-I do the shred most days and walk at least 12000 steps. I need to get back into running at weekends though. Running has been the only way i’ve controlled my weight successfully in the past. I just don’t have the time when I’m at home with two kids now which is why i’m giving this a go.

Hey all. Hope you're all good!

Kitchen closed today on 670cals for 2nd B2B. I have been pretty starving all day today and have struggled more than I would on a norm FD, even with the extra cals. Not sure. B2B is for me on a regular basis, but it's good to know I can do it when needs must and the diary is crazy.

Training course in Central London tomorrow. Probably a sandwich lunch so will moderate breakfast and dinner accordingly to keep it a good NFD.

Hope everyone else has got on ok today!

Ooh, just worked out that I'm 2,200cals in deficit this week with tomorrow my last day before weighing on Friday. If I stick to TDEE tomorrow that'll be a good result, but my try go a little under to increase that margin.

Would love a miraculous 3.5lb loss on Friday to get me into the 11sts!! but am keeping realistic head on that it'll obviously be less than that