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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2018 22:49

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
peachypips · 06/03/2018 08:59

I don't find exercise affects me even on a FD, but everyone is different. I can run a 5k easily or do a body pump class in a fasted state.

Re the binge- for me it is all about taste. If I eat one bad thing then it makes me think 'stuff it- I'll get back on it tomorrow! I am like an alcoholic but with carbs and sugar. Quacking you are totally bang-on - I usually let it spill into weeks of bingeing but I haven't done that this time. I too would put on half a stone after a few weeks of bingeing.

I find the spoonful of marmite really helpful on a FD- headache goes quite quickly after. However it sounds like you did the right thing by eating.

Sorry you feel crap snail. Have you got a lot going on?

Southeast- could it be the snow do you think? I've managed to stop it as of yesterday.

MazDazzle · 06/03/2018 09:25

Hope you feel better today purple Flowers.

Good luck on you FD peachy. Do you always do b2b FD?

My youngest has slept through for the last two nights in a row. I feel like a different woman!

Lately I’ve been making some bad choices and mindlessly grazing on biscuits/bread. We had a family bereavement, which was made more difficult because my DH is away, we’ve been snowed in, I had PMT and my toddler’s teething. Yesterday's successful FD has really given me a boost though. It’s like pressing ‘reset’. Woke this morning feeling positive and making the right food choices seems easy.

Today’s food plan:
Lunch - Caesar salad, followed by raspberries, apple and Greek yogurt
Dinner - chicken stir fry

macnab · 06/03/2018 09:34

Good morning folks. I got through my first FD ok, although I was very tired and today I look like shit. I definitely do not drink enough water, and having read through this thread and the previous one, it does seem very important so I'm really going to try and up my intake. I just really struggle to drink the stuff!

peachypips I am exactly as you describe re. the binge eating. I have zero willpower at the best of times and often if I have a small taste of something I'll think oh fuck it I've lost now so I go on and finish the entire tub/cake/packet Blush Moderation is not in my nature, but I'm working on it.

Question: I've seen a few mentions of bovril or marmite on FDs - do you actually take it off the spoon or do you make it into a drink??

snailhunter · 06/03/2018 09:46

Hope your headache is OK now purple. I am feeling loads better today, hooray, but will wait till tomorrow to do my first fast day of the week.
I've always got a lot going on, peachy, like all of us here! Thanks for asking.

I am one of those people who people say 'goodness, how do you fit all that in?' about. I usually like being very busy and having lots to do and setting myself challenges but sometimes it feels a bit like being on a treadmill that you can't get off. DH is away at the moment - he travels a lot, usually at very short notice - and while I am ruthlessly efficient at coping with everything, sometimes I just don't want to be!

But seeing what some people are having to endure makes my day to day worries seem very small - so sorry to hear about your bereavement Maz.

snailhunter · 06/03/2018 09:48

Oh and macnab, if you can find a herbal tea that you like, they are fab for fast days as they are lovely and warm and have no calories but they satisfy that urge to taste something! I drink loads of Pukka's Three Ginger on fast days and now I choose it over cocoa on non-fast days!

MazDazzle · 06/03/2018 10:44

A good tip to drink more water is to start the day with 2 glasses and drink 2 glasses before every meal.

This is what I do when I’m focussed. I need to take my own advice.

Pumperthepumper · 06/03/2018 10:56

Hope you’re better today Purple, headaches are so horrible Flowers

Second the suggestion for herbal tea, I like spiced apple and camomile because it tastes like apple pie. Also Clipper do a flowery one that’s quite nice if you don’t like the fruit teas (and I don’t generally) - they also do a lovely sleepy tea with lavender and camomile.

FannyDaggers · 06/03/2018 12:27

Joining in after lurking for a bit, with a fair amount to loose. In my 1st fast day today and breaking in gently with a small lunch of miso soup and a carrot with some houmous and having a Michael Moseley recipe tonight of Moroccan Meatballs with cauli rice. Thanks for all the great info everyone has shared it has really helped me.

purpleviolet1 · 06/03/2018 13:05

Thanks all - feeling better today and going with the flow but so far am on track for an FD

Maz you are battling with loads Sad sorry to hear about the bereavement. Good food plan today 👍

quackingduck222 · 06/03/2018 13:18

Hello daggers welcome and good luck with your FD. I can see you’ve been reading up in preparation! Good on you. You will do great.

Mcnab - I think they basically eat it off the spoon. But bovril made into a drink is very very low cal so if you like it then it’s a great drink to get you through a fast day.

Peachy - best of luck today, forget about what’s done and move forward. The main thing is your back and a 1 day thing didn’t turn into a rampage. I was the same as you. Actually was quite naughty last weekend but have stripped the house of crap and will forfeit my treat this week as I still can’t be trusted.

southeastlondonmum · 06/03/2018 13:41

Logging in on a FD. 200 calls so far. I think snow didn't help and also my health problems have flared up so was feeling down. Determined to be good now!

BigChocFrenzy · 06/03/2018 16:38

Sorry to hear of your bereavement, Maz Thanks
You are doing very well to get back on track, with all that's been going on

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 06/03/2018 16:43

macnab Bovril: have as a hot drink.
I teasp or 1 small cube is only 10 cals, so too small to count as a snack - have it any time

Marmite: 1 teasp, also 10 cals, glug down from the spoon
Replenishes salt & minerals, that might be low on FDs, especially if you are a fasting newbie
So, Marmite helps avoid headaches & feeling weak

Drink lots of water every day, but especially on FDs
Fizzy crap, even diet, does not have the same benefits and Coke / Pepsi may be harmful longterm

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 06/03/2018 16:44

Welcome, daggers Smile
and good luck on your 1st FD

OP posts:
peachypips · 06/03/2018 17:05

Maz- not always but I like to get them out of the way! I'm actually going to have to do today and Thurs after all as I forgot I was going out for an Indian meal tmrw for a friend's birthday. Sounds like youve had a really tough few weeks but it feels good to get back in control of eating.

McNab- well done for first fast day. There are a lot of binge eaters on here and this woe seems to really sort it out. I too struggle to actually get the water down! I eat a spoonful of marmite straight from the jar- yum!

Snail- sometimes just the daily grind feels very hard. Leaves you wondering what life is all about! I'm similar to you- I like being busy but sometimes get fed up with it and want to quit and run off to a Premier Inn! Need to try these Pukka teas everyone keeps mentioning!

Quacking- Grin at can't be trusted- I don't think I'll ever be able to be fully trusted around the crap stuff!

Usual milk, pickled onions, courgette salad and Greek salad FD menu. Nearly made it through! Keep going everyone or you'll have to do it tomorrow 😂

HLBug · 06/03/2018 19:51

FD smashed today Grin Had a milky coffee mid morning and that, plus shed loads of water, saw me through until dinner of chicken, small bit of pasta, and veg. Ending about 450 / 500 calories I reckon. Really busy at work today.

Sorry to hear that some folk are feeling a bit down and out of sorts - remember to be kind to yourselves.

daggers I hope your first FD went well!

Butteredparsn1ps · 06/03/2018 20:06

Glad to have finished my B2B had a single slice of vegemite on toast for lunch and chicken casserole + cauliflower rice for tea.

Can safely say I won't be having cauliflower rice again!!!

BlueBelle123 · 06/03/2018 20:33

Buttered well done on completing your b2b and HLBug on smashing your FD.

Welcome daggers

I have completed my FD on about 440, drunk loads of water and no headache Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 06/03/2018 20:54

Well done, bug, blue, parsnips, peachy and any other Tuesday fasters

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 06/03/2018 21:09

Evening all,

Completing a successful NFD here today nicely under TDEE. Its funny how, when eating sensibly it is really quite hard to get to my TDEE ( can't imagine why at my size Wink ).

I'm claiming an NSV tonight... started feeling a little peckish just now... in recent months I would have reached for the biscuits, but tonight I considered just one... and then made a pint of squash instead Grin breaking those bad habits one thought at a time!

Well done to Tuesday fasters - including the impressive b2b parsnips - congrats all.

quackingduck222 · 06/03/2018 21:34

Well done on your B2B buttered. That’s really great. Did you not like the caulk rice? I don’t mind it from a packet from the rice section but have tried it fresh from ASDA and it was foul and as hard as bullets.

Well done Darcy that is a fantastic NSV.

Well done peachy Bug southeast and Blue on your FDs. And anyone else!

I had a smaller tea to allow for Musli and Greek yogurt after. DH has been a bit funny recently about my eating almost checking I’m eating enough.
I think he’s concerned I’m running on a empty stomach and won’t be told it’s fine.

southeastlondonmum · 06/03/2018 21:55

Finished up fast day on 430. I was absolutely fine all day given how starving I was this week. Back on it Wink

southeastlondonmum · 06/03/2018 21:55

Well done fellow fasters. I like Cali rice by the way

FannyDaggers · 06/03/2018 23:15

Finished my 1st fast day at 561, very pleased, well done everyone else who fasted today.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/03/2018 07:41

Excellent 1st FD, daggers
and well done on your FDs too, southeast, duck

duck If you feel strong during and after fasted training, not too tired, then it's fine for you.

You have reached Happy Weight, so you are maintaining - your DH should notice you are eating more than in the weight loss phase.
Enjoy a weekly feast.

If you drop below that weight again, just skip the FD a week or two, until you reach it again
You may even find that you maintain on 16:8 without FDs, except after holidays. Whatever works for you.

OP posts: