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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2018 22:49

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
NoWayNoHow · 26/03/2018 10:54

Morning all

Just caught up... Welcome NoUnderpants - we're 5:2 twins methinks! I also had +/- 20kg to lose, but have lost 4.5kgs so far. Am also useless at any diet/WOL that involves daily focus on food. I find it so depressing... Good luck on your new journey!

littlelady and purple size 8s and 10s?! Amazing! Size 10 is my goal again (I'm a broad-of-shoulder-and-hip build, so look a bit odd as an 8 and haven't been one for 20 years). Amazing NSVs for both of you!

Well done the imprompty race, quacking - how great to just be able to do something like that!

FD for me today after a long and boozy Sunday lunch with family yesterday - not too bad on the calories front food-wise as the roast and pudding was all I ate for the day, but bcf I was definitely over 10% in red wine! Blush

Beef Pho Kabuto Noodles for lunch today (309cals) and then the usual toast and boiled egg for dinner later.

Good luck everyone else on FD today!

NoWayNoHow · 26/03/2018 10:57

x-post paranormal - welcome, and so sorry you've had such a horrible time of it. You're really strong to start something as positive as this and stick to it, I admire you.

Paranormalbouquet · 26/03/2018 11:00

Thanks @HLBug, it's been a fairly shit 8 months or so! Am annoyed with myself for letting it all fall apart so spectacularly though. Last miscarriage was missed and very drawn out, took it very hard. Why can't I be one of those people who stops eating when sad!

@NoWayNoHow I've got about 20kg to go too. 25kg really if I'm honest. But aiming for 5kg to start with, before my surgery which will be at the end of May hopefully.

Paranormalbouquet · 26/03/2018 11:10

Also had a big lunch yesterday and only a very light tea so am having a decent period of fasting to start me off. I find that once I start eating I find it hard to stop so on FDs best to have just tea and miso soup in the day and then a decent meal in evening.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/03/2018 11:44

So sorry to hear the sadness you have been through, paranormal Thanks
Fasting and healthy TLC should help get you get fighting fit again

Good luck to all the Monday fasters

OP posts:
NoUnderpantsinSpace · 26/03/2018 11:48

Paranormal Thanks I'm so sorry, that must have all been so hard to deal with. I hope you have decent RL support too.

Nowaynohow my BMI is currently about 31 I think (I'm about 5'7" and I'm not totally
Sure about my cm height but I think it's 172??) so 20-25kg would be amazing but first I'll be happy not to be "obese"! I find being over 90kg really makes me very very unhappy.

BCF I did not know you're in Germany too! Hello!! I'm north - it's really not exciting here. I don't think I've ever been to Hessen. Anyway, yes I usually buy the plain skyr and eat that with my morning muesli to make it last better - if I eat breakfast at all.

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 26/03/2018 11:50

Oh and I wanted to ask a question about fasting and when to fast after being ill. I am still a fairly snotty mess and coughing etc so I don't think fasting right now would be good for me.
How do I know when I am healthy enough to fast? When I feel up to it? At the moment I still need an afternoon nap to help me get through the day. I feel like my energy has been totally zapped!

(That's also another reason to be a more healthy weight!)

Pumperthepumper · 26/03/2018 12:07

FD here today but 2lbs UP on last week’s 0.5lb loss 😡. Not possible, I’ve been logging all my calories but it means that TOTM is on the way back so the bloating and water retention has started. So annoying having to power through without any noticeable difference for ages. Anyone else get mad readings?

yogi47 · 26/03/2018 12:47

Paranormal Thanksfor you...

HLBug · 26/03/2018 13:33

pumper I had that daft 2lb "gain" the morning that tummy bug came on last week...suffice it to say it disappeared again fairly quickly Grin

para be kind to yourself, you and your body have been through a lot - you don't need to beat yourself up about finding comfort in food if it got you through such an awful time. Now you have your surgery to focus on - definitely something positive to work towards.

underpants don't force yourself to fast or to eat. Definitely don't Fast if you have a fever. Maybe go for some Minis when you start to feel able. Remember that fasting puts your body into repair mode - which I sometimes think can help fend off colds etc if I feel them coming on!

Lunch finished and I'm still hungry Confused Off to make a big tea.

MazDazzle · 26/03/2018 14:49

So sorry Paranormal Flowers. What an ordeal you’ve been through.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 26/03/2018 15:30

para Flowers for you, what an awful time you've had.

2lb gain is disheartenin pumper bit it'll come off once totm over.

I've had to talk myself out of giving up on today as a FD at least 5 times today.... I really wanted cake Sad but not as much as I wanted to attempt a b2b Grin I'm still winning and telling myself it's nearly over and I can have some tomorrow! Gah!

boldlygoingsomewhere · 26/03/2018 16:06

Hello, I’m jumping back on the 5:2 train - I’ve done it before and lost quite a bit of fat round my belly but was finding 2 fast days hard to keep going with long-term. I then did LCHF which I also lost with well but struggled with eating so few carbs.

I’ve put back on all the weight I lost and I’m feeling a bit despondent about finding a WOE which works long-term. I’m suffering badly with bloating round ovulation and TOTM so spend 2 weeks out of 4 looking 5 months pregnant.

I’m going to start with a slightly higher calorie allowance on the FD and see if that helps...

insertcleverusername · 26/03/2018 16:40

I'm joining the thread after many failed attempts at weight loss Sad

Not got a huge amount to lose, but I'm only 5'2" so even if I put on a few pounds it shows.

Getting married in September and collected my wedding dress last week; i couldn't have been more disheartened, disappointed and underwhelmed, partly because it was a bit too big in certain places so it was quite unflattering, but definitely highlighted that I need to lose about a stone to actually look alright in it. Needless to say, I've shed a few tears over the damn dress these last few days.

However, today is going well though! I've only had a cup of coffee so far today and saving myself for a homemade prawn curry with vegetables this evening!

Every time I feel like giving in, I just say to myself "wedding dress"

Grin
littleladylawyer · 26/03/2018 17:40

Welcome underpants and boldly. Para I'm so sorry to hear what a rough time you've had, I hope you find 5:2 gives you back some control.

insert don't worry, September is plenty of time to make sure you're looking fab in your dress. Having the saggy bits altered will make a massive difference as well as slimming down a bit I'm sure.

Fd been fine today although it's a charity event at work so been surrounded by chocolate, cakes and sweets. Couldn't stop thinking about BigChoc's snot and poo phrase! Got nice chunky chicken and veg soup and an early night planned!

How are the other Monday fasters getting on?

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 26/03/2018 17:47

Welcome boldly and insert and good luck with it all.

FD been a real struggle today, I've just had to eat as feeling ravenous and weak, not felt like this on a FD before so I'm blaming totm (although that hasn't surfaced yet... I was expecting it sat!)

Well done lawyer resistin all those treats, I'm hoping next FD on weds is more like yours and not so bloody hard.

Kitchen closed at 548 today but I needed those extra cals

TalkinPeece · 26/03/2018 19:26

Mini fast today ....
Mug of tea for breakfast
Banana and mug of tea for lunch
Sausages, pesto pasta and tomatoes for supper
Have not bothered to MFP it, but around the 900 mark
so all chilled

Welcome to the new people
try not to overly stress about piling in to a strict fast
focus on
NO SNACKING
drink plenty of water
oh and
NO SNACKING
as those are the key points that will last you the next ten years

TalkinPeece · 26/03/2018 19:28

Oh yeah
TREATS ........
What have you done outside the ordinary to EARN the treat ?

Treats are for birthdays
and anniversaries
and completing work projects

NOT for just getting up in the morning Wink

CheshireSplat · 26/03/2018 19:38

Oh TiP does making it to the weekend not count as a treat???

Welcome to all the new joiners.

clevername you've got lots of time. Better you found out now so you've got time to lose weight. I tried my dress on with 2 weeks to go and the zip was about 3 inches away from doing up. My SiLs's face as she had to break the news to me was priceless! I lost about 5 lbs. Most successful weight loss ever! Yours will be much healthier and hopefully sustainable... And interestingly there are loads of us on here who are 5'3" or thereabouts.

My kitchen is closed, I won't go back into there except to get the DC's bedtime milk and myself some water. On a B2B - 650 Cals; Iceland Slimming world soup for lunch and salmon with soy sauce and honey, boiled broccoli and carrots. Nice and healthy, compared to the snackajacks and toast of less healthy FDs. Smile

insertcleverusername · 26/03/2018 19:43

Talkinpeace you're so right about the treats thing, it's always the weekend when I lose the plot, eating like it's Christmas Day because it's Saturday Blush

I'm definitely ready to tackle this, going to be more mindful this weekend and think about what I put in my mouth.

I'm going to try and do a weekly weigh in; I find that numbers on the scale freak me out a bit and sends me a bit obsessive, so I've asked DP to read the scales on a Sunday morning and keep a log for me and just tell me when I've gained or lost. Hopefully I can share my victories here!

TalkinPeece · 26/03/2018 19:44

cheshire
Oh TiP does making it to the weekend not count as a treat???
Nope. Why would it?
Joking aside, the whole treat culture is incredibly bad for us

be it in food we do not need
or stuff we cannot afford

DH gets a treat at the end of the week as its the end of his ultra busy term
I'll have a treat in June when I finish my ultra busy work session

getting to the end of the week is nothing special
save the treats and make them for something REALLY worth rewarding

purpleviolet1 · 26/03/2018 19:45

Paranormal Thanks so sorry to hear that. I had two miscarriages and they were horrendous. It's such a lonely place. Well done to you for joining the thread and ploughing your energy into something positive!

Oh no pumper. TOTM can make one gain - it's just water retention. I've experienced it myself. Love the whoosh afterwards! Keep focussed and don't give in

Boldly welcome back. Did you get to goal weight when you did 5:2 previously? I've lost a stone since November and when I start to lose focus I try and make peace with that though and think it's better to sts at this weight and then restart when feeling better. Perhaps you could set mini goals and then have a bit of time maintaining at that and then join the bus again

Insert welcome! Plenty of time to get to your happy weight before September. Have you done this WOE before?

Fd has been ok today. 1 weetobix for lunch and cheese omelette for dinner. Know am seriously lacking the veggies but I feel rubbish with TOTM approaching. Since I've had dc I find each month i can really tell when I'm beginning to bloat etc. Might do another fd tomorrow if I feel up to it! I know today was more like 550-600 cals so i should be ok.

insertcleverusername · 26/03/2018 19:54

CheshireSplat thanks for the reassurance!

Purpleviolet1 I haven't done this WOE before, but I'm fully expecting to have some difficult days (both FD and NFD) but this seems like a really nice, supportive thread, so hoping this will get me through the difficult times!

southeastlondonmum · 26/03/2018 20:33

Hello to the newbies and waves to all my b2bs. First day has been fine, almost easy but I am well used to one day fasts. Tomorrow will be very interesting though

BigChocFrenzy · 26/03/2018 20:34

< waves to underpants >
(that sounds like I'm waving my underpants in the air Wink. OK, visualise away )
I'm hopefully moving soon to a flat v near the Rhine.
The Rhine valley is lovely (in better weather !) with vineyards at crazy steep angles and lots of castles

Never fast if you have a fever or an upset tum.
If you are snotty & coughing, I would suggest waiting until you feel fitter, maybe next week

In the meantime, I recommend healthy TLC:

  • Drink lots of water all day, cut out fizzy crap
  • Eat nourishing but easy meals, plenty of hot soup
  • No snacks between meals
  • No alcohol, no junk or sugary treats - these hinder recovery and are not TLC

pumper Sounds like you are one of those who retain a lot of water for a long time around totm
The FD after the end of totm will release it again - just avoid totm munchies, which worsen bloating.
If you get discouraged by scales, then I suggest you avoid weighing as soon as you notice the bloating

Welcome, insert Smile
You've definitely got good reason to be motivated
Stay focused and you should comfortably get into that dress.

Welcome too, boldly Smile
Try 800 FDs to start and see how you progress with loss.
An alternative for those who struggle with FDs is to have miniFDs (800-1000 cals) on Mon+Wed+Fri

For the longterm, you need a maintenance plan, or you'll keep losing and regaining that bodyfat
I recommend you use the 5:2 NFDs to develop healthier habits, so that maintenance could be say 6:1 with an 800 FD

So on NFDs:

  • Keep within NHS alcohol limits
  • No snacks between meals, even "healthy" ones hinder fat loss Have any fruit, alcohol, lattes, treats etc only as part of a meal
  • Drink lots of water, instead of fizzy crap or fruit juice
  • Be sensible about sugary treats - first try restricting them to one portion and only every other day
  • Keep blowout meals or takeaways, if you have them, to once per week
  • Have a short brisk walk every day, when you don't do other exercise.
OP posts: