5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Hi all.

Welcome to new people.

Kitchen closed at 514. Am bazookered today so going to bed VERY SOON!

Well done all all Monday fasters.

Quacking- once again finding you inspirational. Makes me feel like I can do this!

Welcome new ones.

Had a binge yesterday. Feel very disappointed with myself. B2b tmrw and Wed.

justterfing health benefits: I would aim for one weekly 800-1000 FD if you can, plus daily 14:10 or 16:8
It usually takes 2-3 weeks before fasting becomes much easier, but a few folk take longer (I did !).

Also don't exercise on an FD until you are fully adapted to fasting

• most experienced exercisers manage short session on FDs, but not everyone can

and FDs are not the day to start strenuous exercise if you haven't exercised like this for a long time.

Research shows that expression of the SIRT1 gene (which brings many of the fasting health benefits) occurs
either after a longer fasting period, e.g. 16:8
or after a day where there has been significant calorie reduction and reasonably helath food

BUT
Daily 16:8 or 14:10 on its own brings some health benefits from the reduced eating window,
but not as much if you are snacking / grazing throughout those 8 or 10 hours, especially if eating a lot of crap.
So best to have only eat 2 or 3 meals, no snacking between

Make any sweet crap or alcohol part of an NFD meal, but still try to keep the amounts sensible, say one moderate portion and not every NFD

Have your last meal by 7:30 or 8pm, as research has proved later eating significantly increases risks of high BP and CVD

Also important for health is to make up your lost sleep

JustTerf as your breast feeding I don't think you should be restricting to 500 or am I wrong BCF?

Welcome Newbies!

OohMrDarcy good to hear your first FD back went well......just like riding a bike . You mention that you drink a lot of water out of interest on FD's do you ever suffer with headaches? As headaches are the biggest reason I can find FD's tough, so I was wondering if drinking a lot more water would help.

Terfing Several 5:2ers and ADFers exercise as you do, or more, with 500 FDs
However, you have no weight to lose, so no need if they are too tough
Who not start at 1,000 (as I did)

Or just get used to daily 16:8 and then see if you want to add an FD later

Sleep deprivation can make a BIG difference to how easy / hard you find fasting, including 16:8
Hence a siesta, if possible, would probably help

FDs are not the day to start strenuous exercise if you haven't exercised like this for a long time.

Erm. Am I daft thinking I'll manage my first gym class since having DD 11 months ago this Thursday, i.e. my second FD of the week?

Mr Darcy you are made of stronger stuff than I am at resisting the bakery smells. Bread is my ultimate weakness. Well done on a great FD.

Duck thanks for the meal idea - I had 2 chicken sausages, sautéed mushroom and one egg Scrambled. Couldn't have too many more calories as had a small portion of the cauliflower chickpea and turmeric soup at 4pm - which was a nice change.

I have however had a moment of joy as realised that the true calorie count of my sautéed mushrooms is actually only 20 calories (with one cal spray oil). I had been allocating 80 cal on MFP for this. Scanned the mushroom packet and it showed only 15 cal for 100g. So now I am at 366 calories and wondering what else to eat. Will wait a bit and think I may have a square of choc and a cup of tea.

Peachy - don't worry about the binge the B2B will reset everything back.

Don't worry about a binge peachy but useful to learn from it
Junk is very moreish; the insulin roller-coaster causes craving spirals

Was it emotional eating, or boredom, or with friends ?
Try to work off stress or boredom with a walk, or other exercise
Treat & pamper yourself in ways that don't involve food

Did you have sufficient during your meals ?
You might need to boost meal size or make sure you actually have meals available.
Check you have enough protein in your meals, with not too many white carbs

How to head off a binge:
Glug down a glass of water
then clean your teeth and gargle with mouthwash afterwards - this often makes eating unappealing
Now find something to do that actively occupies hands, brain or body

blue EBFers should do 1000 FDs;
other BFers 700 FDs for weight loss
but a BFer only wanting heath benefits can do 1000 for FDs.

bug You have adapted well to fasting and it's only one class (presumably 1hr, not 2 hrs)
You should be fine - it's quite different for a fasting newbie, with too many new stresses at once

If you can, glug a double espresso 10 mins before the class, to mobilise bodyfat for burning as fuel.

Bad day here. Had a busy day and at 6-7pm during my counselling session I started suffering from the worst headache I have ever experienced. Felt sick and dizzy. Drive home was tough. FD became NFD but thankfully I feel a little better after eating. Haven't experienced this before on a FD - I had weetobix this morning for breakfast and then was holding out for dinner. Ds did wake up earlier than normal (6am) and I never napped when he did which I often do so not sure if tiredness had a part to play

Struggled with being cold and having poor concentration today. Ironically I had decided to try B2B so have actually had more calories.
I'm hoping tomorrow will be better.

Well done on all the SV and NSV - it's encouraging to hear positive stories

Kitchen closed at 516cals... I've had to turn off masterchef though as my stomach was rumbling! Taken myself off to bed to try and sleep off the hunger!! Hope everyone else is managing okay

purple Maybe not enough protein / too high GI ?

If you have breakfast on FDs, I'd recommend protein & veg,
e.g. spinach omelette, or scrambled eggs with smoked salmon, or just a couple of boiled eggs with salt & pepper

Then glug Bovril or Marmite at lunchtime, to replenish lost salt & minerals

Sorry to hear about your headache purple, I hope you're feeling better now.

I've been at this conference all day so held off until the hot buffet dinner this evening. I had sea bass and veg so hopefully under 500 for the day. As I've been busy travelling and then in seminars/ mingling it's not been too difficult today, but I am absolutely shattered now. Also have a vague sense of unease as I can't be sure of how many cals dinner was. Think I need to get to bed!

Well done all the Monday fasters

For my FD, I had my meal at 3:30 pm:
marinated beef strips, mixed beans, huge mixed salad with several different veg, plus mango chunks & a few goji berries sprinkled over.
Dressed with balsamic & a drizzle of olive oil. Yum.

Well done to us all, Monday fasters
Now maximise the fasting benefits with an early night G'night all

Thanks BCF - seems odd as I didn't do anything different to other FD's. Will do that next FD though to avoid

Good healthy FD menu, fish & veg, lawyer and normally within 500

Well done to all of the Monday fasters! What a great way to start the week.

Those prawns sound delicious, JustTerf!

My first FD in over a week is complete. Had nothing all day. I was a bit tempted when unpacking the weekly food shop, but managed to avoid temptation. Had PT session today. It was leg day so I’ll be sore tomorrow!

Dinner was 2 hot smoked salmon fillets (Lidl, 180 cals each) and chargrilled vegetables (Tesco, 1/4 bag, frozen, 100 cals) with a drizzle of sweet chilli sauce. It tasted delicious and was very filling.

Snuggled up cosy in bed now and off to have an early night.

Well, I still feel rubbish and a tad depressed and overwhelmed right now. But I had a sensible NFD within TDEE. So not sure why today feels like a failure. Oh well. Bedtime and a good book for me.

Peachy - I have also been eating constantly the last two days. I don't know why. Need to stop asap

Just checking in after a couple of weeks losing touch with the thread. Need to catch up on the end of the previous one.

I didn't do any FDs during half term (week before last) and was all ready to get back on the wagon last Monday when DH and I had an unexpected babysitter. We were going to go for a night-time hike but it was tooooo cold, so went for pizza. For some reason, missing my Monday FD threw me out and I didn't do any more later in the week.

However, 2 weeks of being fairly relaxed and I've only put on 1 lb. I know I'm eating much less generally than I was so it's a NSV. Plus I did 3 runs in those 2 weeks which helped.

FD today and I smashed it! And did about 25 minutes in the gym at lunchtime; 10 minutes on the rowing machine and then weights.

Thirsty now, but if I drink too much I know I'll need to go to the loo in the middle of the night and then I won't go back to sleep for hours....

I'm back from dancing and kitchen closed on 640.... well within my 500-800 aim. Dancing was ace and felt fine doing it on a FD but I had no problems doing exercise on FD before either.

Going to bed a very happy Darcy, and planning my next couple of days.

Well done to all Monday fasters, Snail, you have nothing to feel bad about. Good NFD so WELL DONE!
Purple sorry to hear about the headache.. I have only had that when having a carby FD.

Blue, I drink the water as it stops me feeling hungry at all, and also helps me prevent headaches. Don't get them really now as a result.

Checking in for a Tuesday FD, hoping to last till an early dinner, taking a carrot to work in case of emergencies!

MazDazzle loved the sound of that tea.

OohMrDarcy I shall now be upping my water!!

Headed into week 4 and a month of family birthdays ahead.... it has got easier as each week has gone by. FD completed yesterday, finished just over 600. However definition of torture is watching masterchef on a fast dayWoken up and had peanut butter bagel for breakfast - that wasn't my plan on my NFD but it was in my tummy before my eyelids were even open....regrouped and have made Greek salad for lunch. Good luck to all the Tuesday fasters....

Peachy -honestly don’t worry about it. It’s a small blip in a big picture. If you get back onto the fasting very quickly you will be fine. I’m urging you not to do what I used to do. Beat myself up and get upset and carry on the binge as that’s how you put on multiple lbs. dealing with it and fasting undos the damage very quickly.

Slinky - mushrooms are so low in calories, great on a FD.

Purple- look after yourself.

Well done on your fasts little lady, Darcy and maz

Anyone else that’s feeling a bit down and a bit meh trying taking some time out for yourself. Painting your nails, having a nice bath anything that will pick you up a bit.