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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2018 22:49

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
quackingduck222 · 23/03/2018 21:29

Darcy it does smell lovely doesn’t it. I do think it will last a long time tho.
Have you noticed any difference with it?

I think I may have been a bit rough with the body brushing as I’ve noticed a few red marks like blood almost on a few of my stench marks. Perhaps the skin is more delicate.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/03/2018 21:44

duck The loss of inches is a combination of HIIT and fasting (which is like the HIIT of eating)
I suggest you increase your food intake gradually, just more of the healthy things and make sure you allow plenty of time for sleep.
Try 6:1 regularly every week, instead of 5:2, so your bod has a TLC break after all the time spent on deficit, losing weight.

Re dry brushing:
be gentle, don't use a hard brush or try to do too much;
stop before you leave marks or it feels tender.
Probably best to do a little every 2-3 days, rather than long sessions.

iirc, MrsFlorrick had good results with brushing, but it takes time and she hadn't lost as much
The birch oil will soften the skin, make it more supple, but again, be patient.

OP posts:
HLBug · 23/03/2018 22:02

Wow some amazing SVs today - well done everyone!!

I've had one meal today - a big lunch with work colleagues - but nothing else so should be happily within TDEE. Had a really fun gym session tonight - a sponsored dance along for Sport Relief. Looking forward to breakfast tomorrow Smile

OohMrDarcy · 23/03/2018 22:10

Quacking, so far I'm focusing my birch oil on my belly / overhang (another batch of c-sections here), inner thighs and boobs..... I feel like the skin looks nicer when its been used, but not in between as yet. I'm using it with the aim of staying ahead of the game so skin doesn't become too saggy as I lose.... Have only ordered my body brush today (thought I had one but can't find) so will start that tomorrow too.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/03/2018 07:20

A sponsored dance sounds a marvellous idea, bug great fun in a great cause

OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 24/03/2018 08:58

Morning all. After exceeding tdee yesterday (cheesy chicken for starters, third of a biryani portion for mains and chocolate fudge cake ice cream for desert) I am not going to eat until later. Need to drink lots of water TOTM bloat. Due on in a few days.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/03/2018 09:38

Saturday FD for me Smile Anyone else ?

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 24/03/2018 09:43

Bug - that sounds really fun. What type of dancing do you do?

Darcy- definitely a good idea to stay ahead of the game.

BCF - actually will be taking your advice today and not doing a FD as I have smoked flavored makrel for tea that needs to be used today and that alone is over 800.

Good idea purple that should be great damage limitation.

Just wanted to share something with the group.
I am a bit of a sweet hound. Last year I picked up a bag of sweets in the pound shop for a treat. Ingredients were on the back but no calorie info. Nothing on MFP either as it didn’t recognise the barcode and I couldn’t find anything online either.

I loved them and over the months have had quite a few bags. At one point I got a bit addicted and had to stop buying them.

My guess would of been 1000 cals. They are now on MFP. Total calories for the whole bag that I eat in one sitting = 4,700 Calories. Blush

MazDazzle · 24/03/2018 09:44

Sounds like good fun bug!

I’ve got the bloat too purple. I wasn’t really tuned into my monthly fluctuations until I started tracking my cycle using an app. Now I know exactly when to expect unsettled sleep/headaches/bloating. My next FD is on Monday, so hopefully the excess water will have gone for Tuesday’s weigh in. I’ve drank so much water, but at the moment it seems to be a one way system!

littleladylawyer · 24/03/2018 10:05

purple that sounds yum, hope you enjoyed it. Good plan re cutting back today to balance it out.

quacking no way! That's insane, what is in these sweets? Amazing you've managed to do so well with loss then maintenance, you must have been being really good on other days.

Our oven broke last night, which has scuppered my food plans rather. Going to John Lewis today to order another one, but not sure how long it will take to be installed. We don't have a microwave or even toaster so will only be cooking hob-based food for a while. DP suggested we live on takeaway dinners Confused

HLBug · 24/03/2018 10:18

It was 30 mins Zumba, 30 mins Shabam (which I absolutely love) and 30 mins Body Jam - all mashed up into a fantastic session. We had disco lights, glow sticks and 6 different instructors swapping in and out to "battle" as their tracks came on. It actually went on for longer than the 1.5hrs planned as everyone was having so much fun. Feeling a bit tired I the legs this morning though Blush

quackingduck222 · 24/03/2018 10:25

Bug that sounds amazing. I love the look of shbam but no where round here does it.
It does look very full on.

Body jam is that a new craze?

Little lady - it was chewits Wands.
How about meals like stirfrys you can do all on the hob? Or meat and veggies that can be pan fried / boiled?

littleladylawyer · 24/03/2018 10:59

Yes I'm thinking stir fries, curries, pasta sauce and courgetti type things, or meat/fish and veg. I'd planned a chicken and mushroom risotto (DP's fave) for tomorrow rather than a roast so can still do that luckily.

Off to Westfield for a dress and an oven- wish me luck! Hope everyone has a great Saturday

quackingduck222 · 24/03/2018 11:07

Good luck with the dress / oven shopping.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/03/2018 11:10

Crikey, duck 4,700 cals for that one (Duck-) portion Shock
Another example of how we usually under-estimate what we consume, especially when it's something addictive, which switches off brain

Don't risk derailing your WOL, lawyer Takeaways are more on the Duck-treat end of the calorie scale
Plenty of healthy delic hob meals
Heck, you can even nuke ready meals for at least part of a meal - at least you'll know the cals - takeaway shops madly pour on the oil & sugar, to increase taste

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 24/03/2018 14:01

Happy shopping lawyer
Jeez 4700 cals, that is shocking.

Feeling so hungry and grumpy today (totm imminent) need to stop thinking about cake Grin

Anyone else struggling today? misery loves company eh

OohMrDarcy · 24/03/2018 15:19

4700 cals for those sweets! Shock So easily done with that kind of thing!!

Bug that danceathon sounds ACE! Glad you enjoyed it.

I'm currently sub-400 cals for the day so far. Am eating out tonight so planning to make healthy choices and driving so I don't drink... .fingers crossed I find a good balance!

BCF hope todays fast is treating you well!

TalkinPeece · 24/03/2018 15:34

I had a splendid workout today digging in the veg garden ....
tomorrow I start planting seeds
feeling better already

BigChocFrenzy · 24/03/2018 15:54

… and your reward will be to eat the delicious results later, so much tastier and more nourishing than mass-produced supermarket veg

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 24/03/2018 16:05

43 Clean your teeth - it'll make cake much less tempting
I was given a homemade cake by our lovely pump trainer after class, but I'm saving it for tomorrow < or never >

Sounds a good plan, MrD Enjoy your evening out.

Today, I felt I needed a breakfast before gym, so I had an Atkins low carb mocha shake with 1/2 teasp of nut butter
< so proud I didn't inhale the whole jar Halo >

Now I've finished pump class - I didn't do the lunges or the spin class afterwards -ankle is not ready - and I'm starved.

So, I'm cycling to a lovely little bakery-cafe nearby for an egg salad,
or maybe a delic "hessische Handkäse mit Musik" < anyone know what that is ? Wink >

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 24/03/2018 19:06

No idea what that means bcf but hope it's good.... enjoy your egg salad... and we'll done for not inhaling the jar Smile

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 24/03/2018 19:24

Just Googled it... sour milk cheese Wink

quackingduck222 · 24/03/2018 19:58

Well done BCF. Bet you were so pleased to be back at the gym.

My heads all over the place tonight. A month ago DH and his friends were talking about running a 10k I was asked if I wanted to enter with them but entry was closing the next day. I was only upto 3 Miles by that point. I sobbed about it but I declined but entered the kids 2k race as a consolation instead.

A miracle happened today and I managed 5.5 Miles. My DH is now pushing me to take his place in the 10k.... tomorrow.

No idea what I’m going to do yet. But have filled up on protein just incase.

GrannyPenny · 24/03/2018 20:11

Quacking - I have good news for you - the MFP entry for the chewit wands is incorrect! It says 20g is 381 calories but according to nutracheck.co.uk it's 100g which is 381 calories, so a 250g bag is actually (only) 952 calories - less than you thought.

My conditioning exercise class this morning was tough - it's the one I like the least, very small movements which makes my leg muscles feel like they're burning interspersed with arms and abs with weights. As there's no cardio involved and I missed it yesterday did my run this afternoon but although legs felt good, it was disappointingly slow.

What seeds you planting Talking? I have a very small veg plot so digging it over will only take half an hour or so. Been very disappointed with it the past few years as the weather hasn't been good and to make matters worse next door but one cut down their trees turning our garden into a wind tunnel. Note to self - buy sugar snap pea and tomato seeds tomorrow.

quackingduck222 · 24/03/2018 20:35

Granny - thanks so much for checking that out. I did wonder why it was so off compared to very similar sweets. Hence my 1000 estimation as that was based on haribo icing filled sticks (whatever there called)

Your class sounds rough. Is conditioning like toning? Where they work you really hard and you walk like john wayne for a week.

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