5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Welcome, american
All you need to know (and more !) about fasting is in the OP
Calculators & body visualisein the links under "How to Start"

Notes on 16:8

• Yes, you can choose whichever 8-hour eating window you want
  . and change it from day to day if you wish.

• You are unlikely to lose more than water weight, unless your daily average gives a decent weekly calorie deficit;
  I suggest aiming for at least a weekly 2000 deficit. Around 3000 is the theoretical 5:2 average.
  So:

• Don't eat the same amount of food within 8 hours as you would in a normal (maintenance) day
• Easiest way to ensure a deficit on 16:8 is to cut out either breakfast or supper AND don't eat back those calories within the 8 hours

• No snacking or grazing between meals
  . Even "healthy" snacks like fruit or veg, also alcohol and lattes
  Have these, along with any "treats" only as part of a meal
  . Have 2 or 3 meals daily, no calories between

• The 16 hours is a total fast, includes ALL calories, whether from food or drink
  . So drink lots of water, tea & coffee without milk or sugar, to see good progress
  If this is v difficult, then you an allow up to 40 cals total over the 16 hours "fast",
  because that won't significantly affect insulin levels

Cheshire Except for those starting around the middle of healthy BMI, i.e. little available fat to lose,
your rate of progress is typically what happens when you eat back almost all the FD deficit,
with maybe a lot of treats and / or alcohol

• which is absolutely OK if you are in no hurry and if it makes it sustainable for you

It can easily happen when your real TDEE is quite a lot below the theoretical TDEE from calculators,
usually caused by an earlier loss of 30+ lb
or by a history of other diets and yoyoing

Note: no need to count calories unless you find you are not losing as expected,

• in the latter case, calculating TDEE and having just one full week mfp can give a reality check, to indicate habits to work on.

Thanks BCF, hmmmmm, it's definitely the treats and alcohol....

I'm also not doing 2 proper FDs a week on many weeks. I don't quite have the motivation for the 2nd one. I found the B2B was good - will try that again next week.

I wonder if deep down I'm reluctant to lose too fast, because I associate that with putting it back on. Self-sabotage or a long term approach...?

littlelady that does sound tough. On your FDs could you eat separately and then wait for him on the other 3? DH and I have got better very recently but until recently, we often ate about 9.30... which was too late for me.

Congrats on losses everyone. I'm on my second FD this week although reduction in my activity means this is more about maintaining than loss.
Planning on doing my first B2B next week Monday and Tuesday. Any tips guys

that sounds tough cheshire, you must have been shattered getting in at that time. I hear what you say re: weightloss, i have a lot to lose (3 stone) so I'm expecting this 2lb per week won't be sustained

lawyer i think in your position I would have to eat earlier, or maybe have a smaller meal late afternoon? I'm often in bed for 9.30 / 10pm so couldn't even contemplate eating at that time - hope you get a routine sorted out...

Wow! So many scale victories this morning.

It sounds like you’ve a lot going on Cheshire. You’re doing well to juggle all that and make the right food choices. Good luck for Monday’s weigh in.

I average about half a pound/a pound a week. My youngest is almost 2 and I’ve lost about two and a half stone since he was born. Slowly but surely, I’m getting there.

All this talk of freezing scones has reminded me, I often used to freeze all sorts of cakes/bakes. My DC love baking, but they’d bake 12 cupcakes, eat one each and I’d be left with the rest. I’ve never came across anything that wasn’t freezable.

Thanks for all the congrats - I do have a lot to loose which I think is why I’m seeing some pretty big losses early on, I’ve actually lost 25 lbs so far this year which includes some pre 5:2 but i am sure it will slow down relatively soon and I have a long long long way to go!

Scale fail here today - but I'm not too worried.
I've been ill for weeks and weeks so CBA to fast strictly
and the Boditrax machine still reckons I'm in my 30's

BMI is still under 22.5 so not all bad

cheshire I think you've done really well to manage with a schedule like that. I know what you mean about not wanting to lose too quickly then pile it all back on- hopefully by allowing some treats and booze you'll be able to keep it up for good.

I think on FDs I'll eat without him then NFDs try to have a small protein based supper at 5/6 then wait for him to get back for the main meal unless I get really desperate!

I'm so looking forward to a glass of wine tonight, cutting out drinking in the week has meant I appreciate it at the weekend much more.

lawyer On those NFDs when you really want to eat with your Oh, I suggest 16:8
so you don't eat until 12 pm lunch, then eat 4-5 and then at dinner

However, late eating has been proven to significantly increase the risk of high BP and CVD
So ideally, keep him company with a cuppa instead.

cheshire If b2b works for you, go for it
For longterm health, not just weight, I recommend keeping within NHS alcohol guidelines always
and also keeping sugary / carby treats within sensible limits - try moving to every other day treats

All of us (including me !)

Concentrate on supporting your body with the nutrients it deserves from you.
nutrients = nurture
Junk is mostly empty calories and usually contains substances like sugar & highly processed food products that are actually "anti-nutrients"

Guideline for weight loss phase is keeping booze & sweet treats total over the week to within 10% of calories consumed
This could optionally rise to 20% during maintenance

I hope you feel 100% again soon, TIP
Concentrate on getting well, maybe healthy TLC maintenance until then ?

@BigChocFrenzy
I'm not ill enough to be in bed - managed 3/4 mile swim and Yoga and Bosu workout today

• but definitely cannot get through a day on only 500 calories .... coughing gets really tiring

So I'm just trying to eat one large and one small meal a day and stay active and reduce carbs and sugar. Booze makes my sinuses worse so I'm reducing that a bit too.

As soon as the weather warms up I'll shake it off and then burn a few thousand calories repeatedly getting the veg garden going
and I only gained .25 kg this week so its all repairable

Hey Maz! How's today going? Anyone else fasting today?

I'm signing in v late to say I'm fasting today as well. Just had omelette for late lunch, and threw myself about in a very ungainly fashion earlier to my new Joe Wicks dvd - did 2 warm ups by mistake, then a 15 minute workout - which nearly killed me - sooooo much harder than 'Fitness Coach'!
Have done a workout most days this week so hoping the scales are kind to me tomorrow morning.
Fanny - 25 lbs in less than 3 months - you deserve a medal. Well impressed! 🎉🎊💐

Hope you get better soon TiP.

Cheshire - I do get where your coming from with loosing it too quickly.
But the thing is we’re also learning good habits along the way. These good habits will set you up for life.
Not like for example a food replacement diet as you learn nothing along the way.

I think 5:2 is different from any other diet. I’m starting to relax around food as I now know whatever damage you do can be undone with a fast. No other diet does that. If you had a day off / big treat whatever on a normal diet the next day you may revert back to whatever diet your doing. But unless you fast or pull it back to compensate the damage done I can see where the weight could go back on slowly and steadily.

I took my monthly measurements today. Exact same weight as last month.
1/2 inch off under bust. 2 inches off tummy, 1/2 off thighs and 1.5 off my ass.
Don’t understand how that’s possible but il roll with it.

Well done frazzled. Heard that Joe Wicks is HARD.

And daggers 25lbs is absolutely fantastic!

Really well so far, thanks frazzled. It’s good to hear I’m not alone! How’s your FD so far? I haven’t had anything so far except black coffee and fruit tea. My prawn green curry is on the hob. My DH is having the same for dinner as me and isn’t having his usual wine tonight. This should make it easier for me to stay on the straight and narrow.

I’ve drank so much water today it feels like I’m swimming in the stuff!

duck That's about a month on 5:2 maintenance now ?
You sound relaxed about food & eating, which is exactly how it should be.

Re losing inches, not weight:
IF (intermittent fasting) WOLs e.g. 5:2, usually improve body composition - i.e. % fat : % muscle - even without a calorie deficit or increasing exercise.

(Unless someone's diet is really poor wrt alcohol, sugar, other junk food - or unless they snack - or have certain medical conditions)

This is because IF is a loading on the body comparable to HIIT: both are forms of "interval loading"
and both utilise "hormesis" (repetitive exposure to mild physical stress increases fitness & resilience)

In your case, weight remains around goal, because fasting is burning fat and also boosting muscle build.

You could probably comfortably maintain on 6:1 and just return to 5:2 after holidays

Been on maintenance for 5 weeks now. Completely chilled out now as it works. I know it works so no worries there. Feel a lot happier especially as I’ve upped carbs and I’m bang upto TDEE every day. I was always worried that in itself would make me gain and it doesn’t.

Despite doing 2 days at 800 or occasionally 1 x 800 I’m pretty stable weight wise.
Been pushing my TDEE up a little bit this week and still bang on target.

Do you think the inch loss could be combined effort of HIIT and fasting?

Quacking that's amazing! You are my inspiration

Well done to all other for lots of svs and for those fasting today , that's another under your belt.

I've had one meal today but definitely went over TDEE. Tomorrow we're visiting family and having dinner with them. I'll not eat until then. Need to drink plenty of water as I can feel the TOTM bloat. Damage limitation. FD on Sunday.

Sorry to be a pain. Is it the weleda birch oil from amazon?

Evening all

Purple, yes I got mine of amazon - I warn you now, it isn't cheap but smells divine!

quacking - ace, 5 weeks easy maintenance, well done you!

Hoping the Friday fasters have finished now and kitchen closed, planning an early night!

I might have gone slightly over TDEE today, but I'm not worried - tomorrow is a busy day and I probably won't eat much until the evening as I'm in the process of sorting DD's room ready for a redecoration prior to the move to secondary in september!

TiP - boo to the bug, am sure it will blow away soon and you'll be back on form again.

Purple yes Amazon. Worth looking at a few sellers on there as Prime was dearer. But when I went through to postage screen it was a weeks wait anyway so went back and got 200ml for £25 and that’s pretty good most shops were £20 for 100ml