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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2018 22:49

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
BigChocFrenzy · 24/03/2018 22:05

duck You could try the race at an easy pace; no harm done if you just do 5 or 6 km, so why not ?

I hadn't realised the sweeties bag was only 250g Grin
but that sounds a more reasonable figure for its calories:
The most calorie dense solid foods I know are macadamia nuts, which are 740 - 770 cals per 100g;
even olive oil only has about 900 cals / 100g

However, Nutracheck has over-estimated someone's TDEE by a few hundred,
so at least for TDEE, don't believe Nutracheck - use Mosely's TDEE calculator from the OP.

43 Google is cheating ShockGrin
"Handkäse " is a high protein very low fat cheese.
It's served in a vinaigrette with raw onions - the "Musik" refers to the supposed farts from these Grin
(but I don't fart from onions)

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 24/03/2018 22:07

Served with a slice of rye bread
The Hessen version has slices of apple on the cheese, plus tiny chunks of apple in the vinaigrette. Yum
(Hessen, where I live, is the German state containing Frankfurt)

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 24/03/2018 22:10

Any Parkrun or friendly race you could join, granny ?
It could spur you on, awaken your competitive instincts.

OP posts:
GrannyPenny · 24/03/2018 22:45

Parkrun BigChoc?? Not a chance. That would mean getting up way too early on a Saturday morning and it's hard enough getting myself out for a 9.15 gym class which is only 15 mins walk up the road.

Quacking - 10k sounds do-able but you'll need to take it very easy after your long run today. On the positive side, you're bound to get a personal best - but why doesn't your OH want to do the 10k though?

I may sign up for a local 10k in July - waiting for confirmation it's going ahead this year though as there are lots of works in the area it's usually held.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/03/2018 22:53

That July 10k sounds a good idea if it's held, Granny plenty of time to train for it
I agree with not wanting to get up at sparrow-fart on a weekend < shudders >
That's just punishing for those whose body-clocks don't work that way

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 25/03/2018 06:46

Still unsure about today. Not aching but suffering with blisters.

Granny he’s not fussed about doing it as he’s training for a marathon next month. Plus he runs to work and back twice a week. It’s 12 Miles one way.

OohMrDarcy · 25/03/2018 08:17

Morning all

Dinner out last night was a lovely greek meze type affair. I tried to make balanced choices, including a very low cal prawn dish. Did go slightly OTT but didn't finish the dishes, was eating slowly and chatting so as soon as I felt full I stopped. No change on this mornings scales, so I'm taking that as a being sensible success!

Quacking.. you made a decision about the 10k yet? I think I would do it if it wasn't the day after a long run... not sure about your situation.

BCF - what did you decide on from the cafe?

TiP - what did you plant? I'd love a veg garden but just don't have the time to maintain one at the moment.

I'm off for another busy day, am building furnitore and swapping DDs room around a bit today.

purpleviolet1 · 25/03/2018 10:00

FD for me today. Thinking of doing a b2b. Worried I'll have 650 cals today and then won't fast tomorrow so today's fast will just be a mini Hmm

I just managed 2 plans @ 30 seconds each Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 25/03/2018 10:18

duck Blisters changes things - it would be very risky
You might not be able to run properly for weeks

You also need to look at your shoes and socks for your ordinary runs - you shouldn't get blisters.

btw, your DH's 12 mile run commute is brilliant; good for him !
(I presume he has somewhere to shower & change at work Wink)

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 25/03/2018 10:32

MrD I had a delic egg salad - but then I saw plates of their Mediterranean tarte flambe, choc torte, ice cream torte Grin -
and so I made an executive decision Wink to postpone the FD to today.

I hadn't realised the wonderful evening menu and it would have felt like deprivation to miss out
(So yesterday's supper was about the 4,700 cals duck thought she had !)
Had a lovely evening by the sunny Rhine, watching the boats go by; this will be my watering hole - on NFDs - after my move.

Today I'm not going anywhere and I have a lot of chores to do, so the time freed up by an FD is very useful.

Anyone else fasting today ?

OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 25/03/2018 10:33

Planks not plans!

BigChocFrenzy · 25/03/2018 10:36

Well done on the planks, purple Good progress on core strength
Important:
Keep your bum right down, so you have a straight line from shoulders to heels.
Much better to do 5 secs with proper form, than 30 with bum in the air, so stay focused on form

OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 25/03/2018 10:41

Thanks BCF will take that on board

BigChocFrenzy · 25/03/2018 11:13

Like this

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat
OP posts:
GrannyPenny · 25/03/2018 12:10

Quacking - if you have blisters I'm surprised your OH suggested you take his place - bad ones can scupper running plans for weeks, depending on where they are. Fingers crossed you went back to bed and had a lie-in instead!

Well done on your plank Purple that's really good progress.

quackingduck222 · 25/03/2018 16:39

No back to bed for me I’m afraid.

I did it, I actually can’t believe I did it.

It was a case of now or never as I would probably never of signed up of my own accord. I knew if I didn’t do it I would of been gutted.

My feet are alright. Weeks recovery time now.

HLBug · 25/03/2018 17:08

Aww duck - massive congratulations!! You must feel awesome!! Did you run the whole way?

purpleviolet1 · 25/03/2018 17:13

Wow quacking!!! Congratulations and massive well doneGrinGrin

Nsv today bought some items in next sale size 10 and they looked great. Very slightly on the snug side for me as I prefer things looser but omg what a revelation! I never realised I lost so much body shape being 10 stone.

Can't wait to get down to 8 stone Grin

FD is off - going to Nando's for dinner and although there is healthy choices I don't fancy them (I love their chips but will have one side rather than two).

It'll have to be FD tomorrow which means I've missed an FD this week. I always find if I miss an FD on Thursday I really struggle to fit another in that week. I tried.

purpleviolet1 · 25/03/2018 17:13

Having a day with DP today after a long time (work commitments) so want to just relax and continue to enjoy the rest of the day

TalkinPeece · 25/03/2018 17:31

grannypenny
My veg garden is HUGE (size of an allotment)
but today I planted
Broad beans ~ peas ~ spinach ~ carrots ~ leeks
and pulled up the last of the 2017 kale as its gone over
peppers ~ aubergines ~ basil ~ tomatoes
are germinating in the polytunnel

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 25/03/2018 17:58

Wow well done quacking enjoy the time with your other half purple and fab nsv there Grin

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 25/03/2018 17:58

That sounds amazing tip but also very time consuming!

slinkyme · 25/03/2018 18:14

Well done quacking!

TalkinPeece · 25/03/2018 19:08

fortythree
my veg garden is my sanity place
it takes about 15 hours a week
and I love it

quacking
WAY TO GO : nothing can stop you now

quackingduck222 · 25/03/2018 19:15

Thanks everyone.

Bug - I ran & walked fast. I did what I normally do on the Tredmill to be honest. But struggled a bit with pace as I’ve ran outside once for 15mins.

Purple- that is fantastic. So so happy for you. Are you close to your goal weight?

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