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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 21/11/2017 19:34

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
purpleviolet1 · 27/11/2017 20:31

Thanks Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 27/11/2017 20:33

Easy No-Tape Frame Size
Wrap your thumb and middle finger around the other wrist - not tightly - just above the wrist bone:

. If your fingers overlap, you have a small frame, i.e. petite and likely suit lower part of BMi
. If they just meet, you have a medium frame.
. If they don't touch, your frame is large and you may be at the top range, especially if you are muscular and / or large of boob

OP posts:
OuchBollocks · 27/11/2017 20:35

There is a big gap between forefinger and thumb. I do tend towards the 'freakishly strong, brick shithouse' end of the scale.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/11/2017 20:44

Waist Size & targets
Waist measurement is a good indicator of visceral fat levels (i.e. around internal organs) which is the kind you really don't want too much of.
Booze and sweet / junky carbs - in excess - tend to pile on fat preferentially here and in your organs.

Measure your waist at narrowest point usually about 2" above the navel

  • if waist / height is 0.5 or over, aim to lose more weight if poss
  • Really good is 0.45, but if you're middle-aged, or had a few DC, this may not be realistic
  • Ideal is 0.37-0.45. Below this, you should probably STOP losing weight, to maintain good health and bones
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/11/2017 20:47

We're mesomorphs, ouch < high five > usually good weightlifters
but we can as easily gain fat as muscle. Hence vigilance in maintenance < sigh >

Do you lift ? Enjoy pressups ?
HIIT is usually the best cardio for us,

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/11/2017 20:49

It's thumb and middle finger, btw
Almost everyone has a gap with forefinger

OP posts:
TheMShip · 27/11/2017 20:54

BCF What if you are like me and have freakishly large hands? Grin

OuchBollocks · 27/11/2017 20:59

Sorry meant middle finger. I do also have freakish hands and an enormous head. I have the biggest size hat my employers have as standard for women :)

quackingduck222 · 27/11/2017 21:07

Best no it’s fine I don’t think it’s rude at all.

I think my target I’m aiming for will take me too 19.8 BMI, I am aware this is quite low and quite possibly out of reach.

I’ve had it at the back of my mind that I will play it by ear take each lb at a time and will keep reassessing it. It’s not set in stone.

I’m really quite happy with how I look at the moment so will see how it goes.

quackingduck222 · 27/11/2017 21:11

I’ve just done you frame test BCF and my thumb and finger overlap.

I never knew until last year I had a small frame until I started shrinking. I used to be a size 22 Grin

Bestbees · 27/11/2017 21:13

Medium build here. Definately wehn i get near 9 stone i have no arse.

HandMini · 27/11/2017 21:28

Hi everyone - brain too fuddled to do waist/height measures now! Will do tomorrow.

Good FD here (definitely within 500) and looking forward to scrambles for breakfast!

My dependency on carbs has shrunk amazingly. I am so happy that I don’t crave bread for every meal.

peachypips · 28/11/2017 08:00

HLBug - I’m certain the run will be hilarious- particularly my running!

Re wrist trick- I am 5’ 3” but my fingers don’t touch. I thought as I was short I must have a small frame but it looks like I’ve got a large one! Am big-of-nork and have very muscular legs.

Ouch am also brick shit-house! And people always say I’m freakishly strong too. I’m always called in to help with house moves! PMSL at enormous head! Am also def a mesomorph. Power to us (literally).

Good fast day yesterday and am in London all day today again which helps me stay within TDEE. Haven’t put any weight on after my weekend outing which is great. Phew!

peachypips · 28/11/2017 08:02

Btw I’m starting to get quite fond of this group and my 5:2 friends. Have a great day all.

Ta1kinPeace · 28/11/2017 08:56

peachy
You are what used to be known in the day as "chunky" Grin
There is a lass who comes to my gym classes who is solid, there is no other description.
Her knee joints are big so she will never have thin legs
BUT
she has lost a load of weight and got really fit (bodypump, bodybalance, running) and she looks really trim and neat and non wobbly - fabulous in fact.
I'll guess her BMI at around 23 and for her that is perfect.

We are all different. Not everybody can be thin.
But everybody can be lean and toned.
especially with
NO SNACKING Wink

BigChocFrenzy · 28/11/2017 13:31

duck If you are petite, then your target BMI is ok.

However, I strongly urge you be kind to yourself
and don't get stressed about whether you lose each week,or even have a blip upwards.

Further loss at your BMI will be v slow, 1 lb per month is quite normal

Everyone: The ideal for successful loss and longterm maintenance is to be focused, but chilled.

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 28/11/2017 13:40

No I completely agree. I’ve given my head a bit of a wobble and have already readjusted my target by a couple of lbs upwards. It’s a number on scales no one but me knows that so I’m thinking why is it so important to me, it’s not. Being comfortable in my own skin is.

I’ve just remeasured myself and I am slightly shorter than I thought so that’s effected my BMI, but again it’s just numbers and not important.

Going to lay off the scales for a bit, stick to plan and not binge that’s my new aim in life. Also follow the 5:2 motto NO SNACKING Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 28/11/2017 13:47

If you think your hands are not in standard proportion to your bod,
then you need someone to use a tape measure - v difficult to measure your own wrist accurately with one hand.

Women:
• Height under 5'2"
• Small = wrist size less than 5.5"
• Medium = wrist size 5.5" to 5.75"
• Large = wrist size over 5.75"
• Height 5'2" to 5' 5"
• Small = wrist size less than 6"
• Medium = wrist size 6" to 6.25"
• Large = wrist size over 6.25"
• Height over 5' 5"
• Small = wrist size less than 6.25"
• Medium = wrist size 6.25" to 6.5"
• Large = wrist size over 6.5"
Men:
• Height over 5' 5"
• Small = wrist size 5.5" to 6.5"
• Medium = wrist size 6.5" to 7.5"
• Large = wrist size over 7.5"

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 28/11/2017 13:48

oops, sorry. MN v slow and crap format atm

OP posts:
HLBug · 28/11/2017 14:30

I’m definitely small framed on top - I always really struggle to get bracelets to stay on and have to add extra watch holes. Unfortunately my hips / arse / thighs are from a rhinoceros.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/11/2017 18:48

bug Frame size, i.e. your skeleton, is almost always uniform, top & bottom

It sounds more like your bodyfat is concentrated in your lower half, i.e. a pear
-which is better than around your waist Smile
-so as you continue to lose more fat, your lower half will slim down to be more in proportion

What helps shape for pears:
broad shoulders, which you can achieve with upper body resistance training
e.g. pressups are brilliant, as they also work the abs
also lifting weights that work your shoulders: bench press and standing shoulder press (especially heavier ones), front raises, side raises

OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 28/11/2017 19:36

You are a wealth of knowledge BCF

Question for you - I was advised to take supplements from a nutritionist (and did for a good couple years after my op and they made a difference to overall well-being). I found them difficult to take because they made me feel quite 'full'. Would it be ok to take these on FD's? Examples are good quality fish oils, vitamin C, spirulina (a plant mainly made up of protein), magnesium

purpleviolet1 · 28/11/2017 19:37

Oh my middle finger and thumb slightly overlap over my wrist bone. They used to overlap more than they do now though!

BigChocFrenzy · 28/11/2017 20:18

purple Those supplements sound mostly ok,
except that studies now indicate fish oil supplements don't provide the benefits of fish

So, try to eat fish 2-3 times per week instead

e,g. On an FD, prawns are great low cal protein in a stir fry, or mix some smoked salmon with scrambled egg
On 1-2 NFDs, for your main meal have an "oily" fish, e.g. salmon, sardines, herring

OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 28/11/2017 20:19

I'm not very good with fish big choc Sad only like salmon cod and haddock