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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 21/11/2017 19:34

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
BigChocFrenzy · 26/11/2017 20:24

MrsR I suggest you calorie count and measure out in advance the total milk for your FD, then put it in a little pot.
Same for sugar if you really need it.

No snacking ever - the best tip
Even "healthy" snacks keep blood sugar raised, increase overall hunger and hinder fat-burning

Another tip: avoid low-fat products - they are usually not as tasty or filling. Have a smaller portion of the proper stuff

Eat meals at least 4 hours apart, with no cals between - both FDs and NFDs
If you need something between lunch & supper, then healthy protein & fat are Ok: fancy a measured amount of unflavoured nuts - salted is ok -or cottage cheese ?

On NFDs especially, just add any treat, or fruit, or anything you would normally snack as part of a meal, so you don't eat between meals.

OP posts:
mrsreynolds · 26/11/2017 20:30

I like peanuts
And dark choc 😁

quackingduck222 · 26/11/2017 21:39

2nd FD in a row here and it’s killing me. Won’t be doing this again next week.

Just hope and crossing my fingers for a loss this week and hope that meal out Thursday hasn’t beaten me!

Hope everyone has had a good FD

Ta1kinPeace · 26/11/2017 21:44

quacking
I never did back to back fasts
they are much too much like hard work Grin

I did not fast today, but I did do four hours of digging in my veg garden

HandMini · 26/11/2017 22:22

I’ll be fasting tomorrow and quite looking forward to it after a bit of a bloaty weekend!! Blush

Agree with BCF that a protein snack is way better than a fruit snack which I find just makes me feel sugar-hungry.

I’ll be doing herbal tea / fizzy water all day, then a big portion of veg soup with lentils and chickpeas for early supper.

Monday always frantic at work which helps.

Motheroffourdragons · 26/11/2017 22:29

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Bestbees · 27/11/2017 07:02

Back on the fasting after a weekend of excess. Fingers crossed not too much damage done!

quackingduck222 · 27/11/2017 07:47

I have a deficit over the week of 0.2 lbs.

Little bit gutted as had 0.6 lbs loss last week. But on the bright side it’s going down and I’m under the weight I struggle to get under.

I’m planning on a good week, I’m having a few drinks this weekend as I’ve not drank a drop in 4 months.

Everyone who’s fasting have a great day!

mrsreynolds · 27/11/2017 11:38

Ugh
What a night/morning
Ds2 was up til 11 then off sms on all night
I think I finally dozed off at 3am 😔
Then came downstairs to a flood in the downstairs loothis is an inkling issue that dh has been promising to fix since august so on the phone to plumber whilst getting dc ready for school
So I've had 2 milky coffees - not ideal on a fd I know but I'd have been on my knees without them
I've allowed 150 cals for the milk
I've just had soup - 113 cals
And scrambled eggs for supper
Must try no coffees next fd
I'm quite proud I didn't look at the flood and think "bugger it" and have a biscuit 😁

BigChocFrenzy · 27/11/2017 12:32

Poor you, with floods and plumbers, MrsR`
However, you managed to avoid snacking, so that's a No Biscuits NSV despite the stress.

btw, on NFDs, you could have biscuits as your pud after a meal, just not as a snack

duck b2b FDs are too hard for most folk, even though you are allowed 650 each FD for b2b
(a few hard cases prefer b2b Wink either to nail both FDs at the start of the week, or to avoid weekend damage)

You're going through a previous set point, so just carry on your normal WOE
It's important in such circs to watch the NFDs first, rather than immediately adding FDs or miniFDs

Be patient; try not to get emotional about the scales every week - maybe go to 2-3 week weighing id=f this lowerrs stress ?

Water swings may easily disguise bigger losses, or your bod may just be pausing to consolidate previous loss and rebalance, before proceeding further

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/11/2017 12:40

Mother On FDs, best to avoid steady state medium intensity cardio, e.g. long runs, swims or sessions on elliptical trainers
Save these for NFDs
That kind of exercise usually tries to get more energy from your glycogen stores (carbs) which will run low on FDs (that's the point, to enable more fat-burning)

Best exercise on FDs is shorter duration, high intensity
e.g. either HIIT like spin classes, sprint intervals etc or fast runs 15-30 mins, or most martial arts
or lifting - pump class, or heavy free weights
High intensity exercise is better able to access more bodyfat for fuel

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/11/2017 12:41

Good luck bestbees, handmini and all the other Monday fasters

OP posts:
HLBug · 27/11/2017 13:23

MrsR you’re a better woman than me - I would’ve abandoned my FD with all that to contend with - really well done for continuing with it!

Weather is vile here today. Temperature is in the minuses and there is bitter wind and icy rain - yuck. I’ve had soup for lunch and will have chicken stir fry for dinner. Will probably end on about 650 kcal today but I’m happy with that given I managed a mini FD on Saturday. Off to the library with the kiddies this afternoon.

mrsreynolds · 27/11/2017 14:27

I have still not succumbed.
I really do think I should get some sort of medal 😂😂

TheMShip · 27/11/2017 14:52

I don't really like HIIT, so I still swim on FDs, but I only do 20 minutes. It's more for my mental health than for fitness.

I'm fasting today and have forgotten my work mug at home (took it for proper deep cleaning, haha). So I've been paying for cafe tea! Sitting at about 250 after lunch of soup and a handful of popcorn. Veggie chilli for dinner tonight, yum yum.

peachypips · 27/11/2017 15:06

Hi all- sorry I abandoned you for a few days! Terrible weekend with my TDEE completely ignored. Had a School mums’ party with mucho food and alcohol- had a brilliant time though! Back on it today with a standard fast day. I can feel I’ve gained but I’m not getting on the scales as it really affects my mood.

Planning to log my NFDs this week as it keeps me on track. Lots of exercise too as I’m doing the local 10k reindeer run ptfa fundraiser. Dusting off my elf costume.

Love love love this time of year but my TDEE hates it!

purpleviolet1 · 27/11/2017 19:26

Hi all, glad to hear everyone is well.

Got back last night from Spain - ate junk since Wednesday. 5 days of junk. Stood on scales this morning and 9 st 13.8lbs. That's nearly 4lb ShockShockShock.

Managed to stick to FD today - nothing all day and just had dinner of home made chicken mince kebab rolls with salad. Really tempted to have a cup of tea with chocolate digestive - approaching time of the month and really really craving chocolate. But I'm going to be strong. Get to bed early.

HLBug · 27/11/2017 19:58

purple most of that ~4lb will be undigested food and water retention** - after a couple of FDs (and some good poos) you'll hopefully see it coming off again.

peachy your run sounds hilarious - you're a good sport for taking part!

HLBug · 27/11/2017 19:58

Grr. Bold fail - sorry.

quackingduck222 · 27/11/2017 19:59

Your allowed 650 cals on a B2B fast Shock I obviously didn’t get that memo. Grin

I know I do have a moan about not loosing much, especially when I’ve starved for 2 days granted, but the most important thing is I’ve not gained and also I’ve not binged in over a month and that’s huge progress for me.

I need to remember I’ve picked quite a low target, I’m hopeful I will get there but I know it will take time. My BMI is currently at 21.3 down from 26.6 from March this year.

I just need to stay focused, not binge and I’m sure it will all work itself out.

Bestbees · 27/11/2017 20:13

Quacking sorry if this seems rude but that is a super low bmi you are aiming for isnt it? Do you think maybe you are kind of at the right weight anyway?

Ta1kinPeace · 27/11/2017 20:21

bestbees
Remember that Fast Day calorie intake is the same for everybody
but
quacking
Back to back fasting is much more disruptive than to asts spread in theweek.
Remember, you'll be doing this routine for many, many years
make it sustainable

BigChocFrenzy · 27/11/2017 20:24

duck You're already at a low BMI.
Are you sure your target is realistic ?
I suggest you consider moving to 6:1 and maintenance now

Once in the lower half of healthy BMI, it is quite normal to progress at only 1 lb per month

  • any more can be too much of a strain, because there is so little available fat to burn, it is very hard to utlilise
OP posts:
Ta1kinPeace · 27/11/2017 20:26

Another point is that healthy BMI range is 18.5 upwards.
For short, petite people the lower end of the range may be what looks best.
THere is nothing wrong in aiming for BMI of 20 ish
so long as you stay lean and mean and healthy on the way

BigChocFrenzy · 27/11/2017 20:29

Don't worry, purple ref my post upthread to ouch, who had a similar blip:
Most is probably undigested food and temporarily retained water due to junk

A week back on 5:2 - a few good dumps Grin, nail your FDs, have sensible NFDs ... and you'll get rid of most, or all, of that

OP posts: