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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 21/11/2017 19:34

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
BigChocFrenzy · 28/11/2017 20:27

No harm taking Vit C, but again not as effective as from food.
So take it, but also boost high Vit C fruit & veg

In roughly descending order, Vit C content:
Veg: bell peppers, tomato, mange tout, kale, broccoli, spinach
Fruit: kiwi, berries, orange, papaya, guava

Vit C is much better absorbed as part of a meal, with a bit of fat.
Another reason not to snack on fruit, but to have as part of a meal

Especially on NFDs, have fruit for pud instead of junk

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 28/11/2017 20:28

Those 3 are fine, purple

OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 28/11/2017 20:38

Thanks bcf!

BigChocFrenzy · 28/11/2017 22:10

Well done, Tuesday fasters.
Now clean your teeth, to firmly close the kitchen
and have an early night, to complete a good healthy day

OP posts:
HLBug · 29/11/2017 08:59

Wednesday FD today and I’m spending most of it in the car Hmm

Bestbees · 29/11/2017 11:12

FD here too

Really struggling with snacking on NFD. Its the fear of a fast day after a 5pm meal. Trying to have a sensible something like cheese abandd cracker, this would be post swim or run too. I feel like if i didnt have this i wouldnt cope on the fd. Is this terrible? Still loosing at 1lb a week so maybe it doesnt matter too much?

purpleviolet1 · 29/11/2017 11:51

Think I overate by 500 cals yesterday if not more and Ive just binged on 10 choc digestives Sad feeling horrendous with PMT and generally under the weather. Think the exhaustion from uti has caught up with me. Just wanna stay in bed 🛏 and sleep it off but have a 8 month old to look after. So doing the next best thing - pyjama day (as was yesterday)

Motheroffourdragons · 29/11/2017 12:08

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

1moreRep · 29/11/2017 13:09

hello everyone! ive just been catching up with the thread

ive had a good fast day and great bff on monday as i weighed myself on friday (after fast day) and had stayed the same so i was gutted last week.

friday and saturday i had a really bad stomach so i took saturday off sport and weighed myself and i had put 1lb on!?! but i've had a chat with myself and i suppose i'm going to fluctuate weighing after fast day (friday) to after a heavy nfd (saturday) but i thought i would weigh less due to the bad stomach.

anyway i am being kind to myself and staying with my calories.

re the wrist thing - now i can over lap but i am 5ft 7 and muscular so what would i be?

peachypips · 29/11/2017 13:24

Afternoon all. Measured wrists and am indeed large-of-frame despite being 5’2”. I always felt right and slim at 10 stone which is quite heavy for a short person so now I know why!

I am ‘chunky’ and proud TiP !!!!

BigChocFrenzy · 29/11/2017 19:14

That's ok, bestbees "snacking" is between meals
In your case you are having a "mini-meal" as your final meal of the NFD, providing it has protein and is not sugary or junky

mother Most breakfast cereals are very sugary / high GI, which soon makes you hungry.
I recommend you swap cereal for eggs or porridge, preferably steelcut oats you cook for a few mins, preferably not instant.

If you really have no time to cook, then choose an instant pack without anything added, like syrup etc- sweeten it yourself, so you know what's in it.
Add cinammon - helps blood sugar and also reduced the amount of sugar you need
Add a tbsp chia seeds- they are a genuine superfood - to lower the GI and increase nutritional value
DRINK WATER whenever you have chia

Alternative: full- fat Greek yoghurt (more filling) with berries and flaked almonds

Also, avoid OJ and most fruit juices, high GI, because the sugar from umpteen fruits is concentrated
If you like juice, then have a small glass - 100 ml - of grape or cranberry juice; both are packed with nutrients

1more If you are muscular with a small frame, I suggest considering the weight range for a medium frame.

However, most important for everyone is the waist measurement and whether you can pinch an inch around your midsection.
In the mirror, check if your muscles are visible and defined. If not, there is a layer of fat you could aim to shift
Check if tight sports clothes show bulgy bits, which you might want to zap.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/11/2017 19:14

purple Just take care of yourself and sleep as much as poss
I suggest you don't try to lose atm;
Have say 2-3 weeks healthy TLC maintenance - nutritious food will help your body and immune system fully get rid of the UTI and rebuild your strength.
Junk is another stress on your bod, that works against recovery, so try to avoid it

Boost veg & fruit

DRINK WATER ! especially recovering from a UTI.

OP posts:
HLBug · 29/11/2017 20:00

Ending FD today on 405 calories which I’m very happy with. Tummy is rumbling now though so it will be an early night! Looking forward to breakfast tomorrow Smile

quackingduck222 · 29/11/2017 20:14

Not a bad day here at all. Fancied a little treat today but decided to go savory instead of sweet as I’m a sugar hound when I start. Found puffy pork scratchings, high in fat low on carbs and not bad calorie wise for a small portion. Had it immediately after my meal so that counts as no snacking right?

I incorporated it into my TDEE by swapping out my spuds. Made a nice change anyway.

I redid my TDEE today and it’s still the same, just to double check as somewhere along the line I’ve mismeasured my height. Either that or I’ve lost 1.5 inches Grin I wouldn’t put it past my body as I have lost a shoe size in the last few months I don’t know how that has happened. PITA tho as none of my shoes now fit

Ta1kinPeace · 29/11/2017 21:59

Peachy
Knowing your build will help you get to and stay at happy weight.
Go for it.

quacking
I wouldn’t put it past my body as I have lost a shoe size in the last few months I don’t know how that has happened
A lot more common than you'd realise ....
You are losing fat from all over your body including around your feet.
1/4 of an inch off your feet = a shoe size !

When I lost a load of weight I dropped three wedding ring sizes
and DH was kind enough to buy me a smaller one to hold the original in place

BigChocFrenzy · 29/11/2017 22:13

Well done on a good FD, bug

That's a good swap NSV, duck Wink

OP posts:
Motheroffourdragons · 29/11/2017 22:22

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/11/2017 22:33

We all learn from each other, mother
Lots of lightbulb moments all around Smile

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/11/2017 22:42

Getting Shorter (for duck)

Generally, adults lose 0.25 - 0.33 " height every decade after age 40, because of changes in bones, muscles & joints.
Women lose an average 2" between age 30 - 70, then it speeds up ... a further 1" by age 80.

If you've lost an inch much before age 50, the main reason is probably bad posture.

How to reduce / reverse height changes:

Best pulling exercise is chin-ups, or just hanging by your arms from a pullup bar.
Our 5:2 maintainer breadandwine regained an inch of height in his late 70s that he had lost decades ago - because on the 5:2 exercise thread he started chinups and made them a regular part of his workout

A study measured 2,000 men and women ages 35 - 55 in 1965 and then again in 1995.
Those who regularly did moderately vigorous exercise - even if they started after age 40 - lost significantly less height than those who stopped exercising in middle age, or never exercised at all.

Yet another reason to exercise regularly

OP posts:
HandMini · 30/11/2017 00:29

Well done Wednesday fasters. I think I came in at around 550. Also looking forward to breakfast!

Bestbees · 30/11/2017 06:46

Thats for the reassurance BigChoc.

Stayed the same this week so trying not to be disheartened as it is still 9lb in 4 weeks.

I know its now time to work on NFD as been here before!

quackingduck222 · 30/11/2017 07:59

So that is quite possible that I’ve got shorter. Not fair I’m back to 5ft 2 now. I do have bad posture on my back it curves inwards it’s never been straight.

I actually googled weight loss and shoe sizes and it seems pretty common. I didn’t know that and am really shocked as even when I was at my biggest I still had skeleton like hands and pretty boney feet.

Peace - I had the same thing happen I had my rings resisized a few years back. Gained weight and relost it and ended up getting new rings. I’m currently wearing ring snugs as I’m not prepared to pay more to make them smaller again.

HLBug · 30/11/2017 08:52

And so the downward trend continues! Another 2lb lost this week (down to 10st 9lb). Only 3lb away from a healthy BMI now - that would be a great start to the New Year Halo

quackingduck222 · 30/11/2017 09:08

Well done Bug that’s amazing.

purpleviolet1 · 30/11/2017 09:35

Bug GrinGrinGrin your inspiring me.