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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 21/11/2017 19:34

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
purpleviolet1 · 25/11/2017 19:11

Thanks BCF great advice as always.

I had alreAdy planned a FD on Monday so will aim for that and probably Thursday. Approaching time of the month so also craving junk and feeling bloated.

HLBug · 25/11/2017 19:44

Thanks quacking, and yes I agree that learning to be kinder to yourself is a big part of this WOL. It’s taken me a while to learn that one ‘bad’ day can be easily rectified - no guilt, no shame.

Mini FD ending on about 900 calories for me today - I’ve been volunteering with a local charity for most of the day and have been kept very busy. Absolutely shattered now and am very much enjoying devouring a Mint Aero Bar for my pudding.

quackingduck222 · 25/11/2017 21:01

I had a horrendous tea tonight. I got carried away last year and bought tonnes of low calorie noodles and I’ve not used them. I now know why as they taste of rubber. Vile things. I really should use them as they were £2 per bag.

I may have to make a spag-Bol in the week to use another packet up.

As we are nearing closer to my weigh in day on Monday I’m feeling inspired to get out and do some exercise tomorrow. Never done it on a FD before.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/11/2017 21:26

I tried those low cal noodles and found them fishy, slimy and horrible.
Some folk love them.
If you really dislike them, be careful they don't sabotage your FD - better to bin them than that

With all new foods, I'd advise buying the smallest available portion to try, so you don't get lumbered with a lot of packets you hate.

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 25/11/2017 21:39

I’m sure I tried just one packet and at the time when I was low carbing. I thought they were a great sub in a stir fry but I think they are vile now. Yes they are very fishy.

I’m absolutely starving but taking myself off to bed now with a bottle of water.

OuchBollocks · 26/11/2017 09:42

Please tell me I can't have really gained 5lbs in 10 days

BigChocFrenzy · 26/11/2017 10:18

Very unlikely, ouch
unless you ate 15,000 calories extra - which would average an extra 1500 cals each day - AND if your bod has no resistance to sudden gain
Most folk can gain at worst 2-3 lb fat over 10 days.
However, most is likely to be undigested food plus retained water from all the excess carbs.

After a couple of FDs, plus sensible eating on the NFDs this week, some or all of that "gain" should go

OP posts:
mrsreynolds · 26/11/2017 14:44

I'm jumping on!
I'm now back at my heaviest...low carb worked well some years ago but I ended up with gallstones 😣
Any tips for a newbie?
I'd like to lose at least a stone if not 1.5 😣

mrsreynolds · 26/11/2017 14:45

Should I do 500 cals or 800 as MM now suggests?

quackingduck222 · 26/11/2017 15:43

Hello MrsReynolds, the only tip I can think of is it’s easy to over eat on you NFD (non fast days) it seems a misconception on this diet you can eat what you want on 5 days then fast for 2.

If you go to BCFs first post and calculate your TDEE this is a guide to how many calories you can eat on your NFD. For you first couple of weeks I’d recommend you use my fitness pal and weigh and calculate all your food so you get a idea on calories. It’s so easy to under guesstimate your calories.

It’s a real eye opener. Also drink lots of water to keep you hydrated.

Best of luck.

mrsreynolds · 26/11/2017 17:39

My tdee is 1600 - seems high?

Ta1kinPeace · 26/11/2017 17:45

What have you put as your activity level?
But if you are relatively young and relatively tall, that is pretty reasonable

Ta1kinPeace · 26/11/2017 17:47

PS the weekly plan that has helped a lot of people over the years runs along the lines of .....

Monday = 500 calories
Tuesday = TDEE less 10%
Wednesday = TDEE less 10%
Thursday = 500 calories
Friday = TDEE
Saturday = its the weekend
Sunday= TDEE

always use sedentary TDEE and never ever eat back exercise calories
it works Smile

mrsreynolds · 26/11/2017 17:48

I'm 45, 5 foot 5 and pretty sedentary 😁

Ta1kinPeace · 26/11/2017 17:49

yup, that's about right then

mrsreynolds · 26/11/2017 17:49

its me badders!

I'm determined to do something
I'm right back where I starred 6 years ago
Grrr

Ta1kinPeace · 26/11/2017 17:50

Hi Badders
in that case you know what needs doing Grin
its easier the second time around Wink

mrsreynolds · 26/11/2017 17:50

Funnily enough I've decided on Mondays and Thursdays as my FDs!!
Soup I think tomorrow!

Ta1kinPeace · 26/11/2017 17:51

Monday is always a good one as you then clear out the system after the weekend
and Thursday sets you up for the weekend
You'll do brilliantly Smile

HLBug · 26/11/2017 19:42

MrsReynolds I'm fasting tomorrow (Monday) too, so we can keep each other in check Wink

mrsreynolds · 26/11/2017 19:57

Hello!
I'm planning on soup for lunch, an apple as a snack and scrambled egg for supper
Then 1500 cals on non Fds

BigChocFrenzy · 26/11/2017 19:58

MrsR tips:

  • NO snacking between meals
  • Keep to NHS alcohol guidelines, with the 2 FDs being totally alcohol-free
  • Drink lots of water all day, every day (keep even diet fizz to no more than 1 glass or 330ml can per day)
  • Build up to at least a 20 min daily walk (or cycle, swim , lift etc)

Mosely's new idea of 800 cals gives good weight loss for people with high TDEE, 2500+
i.e. for most men, or very tall muscular young women

It can also work for those who use 5:2 to maintain, so after the weight loss phase

If you are preT2 / T2, i.e. significant blood sugar issues, then do 800 cals

However, for most other women wishing to lose weight, 800 FDs will slow things down
I suggest most aim for 500 FDs,
but if they can't manage these, then go for 800 FDs, maybe just to ease in
Better to have slower loss than to give up or keep crashing out

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 26/11/2017 20:02

MrsR Avoid snacks, especially fruit on its own - too high GI and will soon make you hungry
I suggest swapping the apple for protein, e.g. a half tin of tuna (brine, not oil) with baby spinach & lemon

OP posts:
mrsreynolds · 26/11/2017 20:06

Hmmm
I don't drink alcohol so no worries there! 😁
If I need a coffee on a FD I assume I just count the milk?
I struggle with low cal snacks tbh...im allergic to cheese and yoghurt and I'm not a fan of cold fish 🤢
I thought apple was quite low cal

BigChocFrenzy · 26/11/2017 20:12

I finished my FD today:
Cycled to the gym for 90 minutes weight-lifting, followed by 30 mins cool-down walk and then sauna

One meal at 5pm: crayfish & guacamole with pepper, tomato & lemon with 1 slice rye bread, then watermelon
Since I'm on maintenance, I added a small bowl of porridge, cocoa & chia seeds, with a square of 92% cocoa choc stirred in.

I had lots of water and herbal tea with chopped ginger too, no milk or sweetener

OP posts: