5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

My husband has just cooked himself roast chicken with Mediterranean roasted veg.

I'm in bed.

My DH has stopped the spontaneous take aways now after a telling off

I can't get my head around being able to eat normally on NFD and still being able to lose weight. Today was my NFD and although I've eaten normally and within my tdee, it just feels wrong ! I'm pretty sure I'm not going to lose weight this way. Sigh.

There’s something strange in the air today- I found my FD so so hard. I also feel like I’m sickening for something- headache, tummy ache, scratchy throat. Not ill but almost lurking in the background!

My husband is quite good, but when I got home from school today there was a cellophane bag of homemade toffee and choc chip cookies as a thank you for helping a lady jump-start her car. I have not had one but they are making me want to cry. With my no sugar thing I can’t really have one anyway but I might break and have one tmrw!

Juicy I know what you mean. I don’t quite trust it yet after having my head filled with WW and SW nonsense.

Peachy it’s a very hard habit to break with SW / WW because quite frankly we’ve been brainwashed. I still struggle with the fact I’m having full fat foods because you know we were taught it was all syns.

I love Rebelfit on FB the bloke tells it how it is. Just remember to ignore everything you’ve been taught by them as it’s a load of made up bollocks. And basically do the opposite

I’m sorry if I offered anyone but I am very anti SW / WW.

Baaaah was doing so well today but ended up with a pizza takeaway for tea - my DH also needs a good talking to!! He's blaming Blue Monday.

FD tomorrow for sure.

In bed to ensure the kitchen is closed. Decent FD today. Hope everyone over 5'3" hasn't banged their heads on the doorframe.

Booked a tour of my tiny gym for Thursday.

Gosh you've been a chatty lot over the weekend!

I so wish I could join the 5'3" club - alas I am half an inch too short.

Peachy - I don't have piriformis syndrome, but I do have a very tight piriformis in the left hip. Been stretching this past week with the very inelegant intensely painful yoga 'pigeon pose' and I've begun to feel quite a difference. As a bonus tonight's run was 2 and half minutes faster than the same run last week.

Today's goals - no snacking (failed yesterday); run; no snacking. The night is still young. No snacking.

Thanks, snowdrop I hadn't seen that report
Very interesting about "flat" soda

imo, for health, fizzy water is a better choice than flavoured fizz, because it is minus all the added nasties that can damage kidneys & bone.
also minus the sugar or sweeteners that spikes insulin
BUT
as regards weight loss, fizzy water (and all other fizz) is clearly inferior to plain

So the hierarchy is:
Plain water is always best choice
Fizzy water if you won't drink plain
Poor choice is any flavoured fizz
Worse choice is Coke / Pepsi, diet or not

juicy Enjoy eating sensible amounts of proper food - which tastes so much better and satisfies your body,
instead of commercialised diet Frankenfoods - which are often less nutritious too.

You should indeed lose weight like this - like so many others have already
(If you've calculated TDEE correctly, using one level down for exercise)

IF (Intermittent Fasting) is a completely different principal to standard daily calorie restriction
and the mechanism of losing is different.

IF uses the same principle if "hormesis" as HIIT exercise, whereas standard diets are like steady state cardio
HIIT gets you fitter faster

The whole idea of 5:2 is

• the FDs are "diet" days
• the 5 NFDs are "maintenance" days, when you eat normally (but a sensible normal !) on the other 5 days

Important benefit: the NFDs train you how to eat the correct amount for your body - which is important for maintenance later

I hate the term "syns" - by design it sounds like "sins" - which should never be associated with food
Way to make people feel guilty !

FD for me today. Made easier by spending evening at cinema. Looking forward to NFD tomorrow.
Night night all

bigchoc sorry to peck your head but today was a NFD for me so in the morning I had a slice of granary toast and jam with a cup of tea. Roughly 140 calories. DH had a day off so we went out for lunch, which was a steak baguette topped with mushrooms and red onions. I had half of that which was about six inches. With some fries.
For dinner I had 2 flatbreads with a tablespoon of houmous which totalled to about 300ish calories. I'm not sure what the lunch calorie count was but does that sound like an ideal amount of food for a NFD?

Or does it seem like too much

Sounds fine wrt amount of food on an NFD, juicy

To stay fuller and to avoid hindering fat-burning, I suggest cutting down on the bread - once per day rather than 3 times

• for many folk, wheat is 2nd only to sugar in its propensity to cause weight / waist gain

This is why I recommend trying rye / pumpernickel bread, but still only @ one meal

Best to avoid double carb portions in a meal, especially if one of them is fries.

Aim for at least 5 veg portions on NFDs and have a piece of fruit
and maybe add a little protein, e.g. swap the breakfast jam for a slice of cheese or an egg - good that you have granary bread.

So, tweaking the type of cais, rather than the total amount

You could vary it like this:
B: full fat Greek yoghurt / porridge - either goes well with cinnamon and a few berries & flaked almonds
L: steak / chicken with roasted sweet potato or small jacket potato with skin or brown / red rice, plus 3-4 veg
S: Granary toast, Hummus, pepper sticks

Morning all.

I did hate it and I know it’s an artificial weight but losing 4 pounds in a day does help matters...

Blossom

Well done to all the fasters from yesterday.

And anyone that’s poorly I hope it comes to nothing.

I’m going to aim for a FD today. Got some new food to try today chicken sausages as they are slightly lower calories than my usual turkey sausages and turkey bacon. Just hope they are nice.

Well done blossom! I’m so tempted to weigh!
FD yday completed at 500cals, going to bed early is always good for me on FD as it’s my evening tv watching that leads me straight into the kitchen for a snack.

I was watching an old episode of hairy bikers (the series where they were both losing weight on 1300 cals a day) . They actually had a lot of really good healthy recipes that had decent ingredients but light on the carbs, gave me a few ideas for NFD.

Also thank you so much to BCF, the high insulin/low insulin charts you posted a little while ago have really registered with me. Every time I want to reach for a snack I remember those charts. It’s been a great help in cutting down. I think before I started this I was constantly in high insulin mode.

Oh thanks BCF, that does sound much more sensible. I've never really had to try at losing weight before so am a bit clueless ! with dc1 and dc2 the weight gain was small and fell off easily by itself, but with dc3 I'm older (33) and was still over 2 stones heavier even after the birth !

Wow blossom well done !!!

FD for me today ! Is napping allowed on fast days?! I've just put baby down for a nap and hopefully will snooze off myself 🙊

There’s something strange in the air today- I found my FD so so hard. I also feel like I’m sickening for something- headache, tummy ache, scratchy throat. Not ill but almost lurking in the background!

I was exactly the same on Sunday. I felt yuck and it made the day difficult.

I hope you feel better now.

I’m currently away from home and have been eating in airports, the hotel, and a shopping mall. But the plus side is that I’m away seeing a Dr and I’ve been walking between clinics and the hotel. It’s one of those medical cities where it’s streets of clinics etc and I’m on track food/calories wise but it has taken some doing.

I had the hotel breakfast today but at the equivalent of 30 pounds it was a very expensive 2 scrambled eggs and some smoked salmon so I’ve been out and bought Greek yoghurt and strawberries for tomorrow. It only cost a few pounds.